AAR, of sorts, 0-5 foot "gunfighting" class, Rochester, IN, April 13-14, 2013

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • iChokePeople

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    51   0   1
    Feb 11, 2011
    4,556
    48
    Imagine for a moment that you live in a world where you're not able to always keep everyone beyond the magical 21' radius in which you are lord and master. Imagine that you live in modern society where people are near you all the time, in which snarling and spinning and yelling "back off, scumbag" would cause a commotion and result in your being asked to leave the mall, movie, restaurant, etc. Imagine for a moment that someone who wanted to stab you, or play knockout king, or put a knife or gun in your face and demand your wallet, or attack you for being in the wrong part of town, or being the wrong color, or wearing the wrong color or the wrong shoes wouldn't announce his intentions from > 21'. Imagine that such a person might, as unfair and unsavory and uncivilized as it sounds, attack you by surprise, or approach you quietly from behind, or from an angle that caught you off guard (I know, barely conceivable...). Imagine that he/they might even employ some type of ruse to get close, appearing friendly or in need of help. Close your eyes and imagine such a thing. Does it make you wonder if you've done all you can do to improve your odds of protecting yourself and those in your care?

    That's the train of thought that led me to put a class like that at the top of my training list. I considered southnarc's ecqc class first, being the gorilla in the category, until I had a really great training experience with Mike (cedartop) and Suarez International in another class and decided to try their version, 0-5 foot gunfighting. I question the name a little, and put the quotes around it in the title, because it is so much more than just gunfighting, but that's beside the point, a topic for another day.

    After teasing me mercilessly for months, Mike finally got tired of my incessant badgering and brought the class to Indiana this past weekend.

    Randy Harris, one of the top-level instructors for Suarez, was the lead instructor and is a master of this material and much more, but we were fortunate enough to attract another Suarez instructor from Ohio, John McCreery, along with our own cedartop. Having three (arguably four -- more on that in a minute) instructors was great for the 10 students who came to train. In addition, though, Randy brought along Ryan, a helper who is both a skilled, dedicated, very uncooperative opponent, and a bright guy who has been through the course many times and adds a lot of valuable information, much like a fourth instructor.

    I'm not going to give away too much content or detail on the course, except to say that its focus is much more than just gunfighting. Its focus is to teach you to survive in the world I described above. Randy and the others take the class through a series of progressively challenging scenarios and give students the tools and knowledge to survive and win in various real-world situations, at close range, under stress. You'll learn very quickly whether you're really ready, and I think it's safe to say it was very eye-opening for most. Then you'll learn, practice, test some more, lather, rinse, and repeat. Each challenge builds on what you've learned, then sets you up to learn some more. Guns? Check. Knives? Check. Sticks, fists, knees, head butts? Check, check, check, and check.

    At some point, if you choose to turn it up a level, you'll get to try to deal with more or less full-speed attacks by a motivated, trained, opponent. Ryan is great at tuning the level of the attack to the participant, to help you learn, maybe by failing. If you're young and strong and sturdy and willing, you're in for a fight. If you're a little more timid and frail, like me, he can go a little easier. You'll get the level of resistance you need, and you'll have the incredible opportunity to validate your beastliness or learn in a forgiving environment that you still have some work to do. I believe everyone in this weekend's class fell into the latter group.

    Yes, there's some shooting, too, for those who need that. It flows from some of the previous work, and it's always fun.

    I think a course like this should be on everyone's short list. If you're like most of the people here on INGO, you have enough guns, you're a reasonably good shot, you practice situational awareness as much as is reasonable. When you're prioritizing your time and resources available for this gun stuff, it would be ridiculous, in my opinion, to neglect the area in which you're most likely to have a problem to solve.

    I'd like to thank Mike for bringing this class to Indiana, Randy for leading the instruction of this critical material, John, Mike and Ryan for adding immeasurably to the class with their insights, experience, knives, and baseball bat, and all of the other students for adding 10 different sets of ideas, experiences, and friendship.

    If you haven't taken a class like this, you really owe it to yourself and those in your care to do it. If you have, I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir and you're planning to go again, like me.
     
    Last edited:

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,399
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    Thanks for posting a review and attending the class. It was again a pleasure to have you there, even if your were scaring everyone else with your "frailness". It is my hope that the class met your expectations and you got a lot out of it. It is funny you describe a world the way you do. If you watch the news, much of our part of the world is just like that, fortunately, it can't happen to me.

    It was nice to have some good representation from INGO at the class to include ichokepeople, Jackson, and Jason. I will tell you, your group was very well represented by these guys. iChokePeople, though he could have taught parts of the class, nonetheless took instruction very well and never tried to upstage anyone. As soon as I saw Jackson and Jason handling their airsoft pistols, I knew they were GTG. This was confirmed to me later during the live fire portion. The robustness, efficiency, and safety of their gunhandling skills would have put many instructors I have seen to shame. It is clear that they don't just "attend" classes, but actually practice their skills till they own them.

    It was a great weekend for me, and I hope for the students as well. I was happy that Randy was able to get up here to do the class, and bring Ryan, who is always such an asset, with him. Thanks to fellow Instructor John McCreery for coming over from Ohio and helping out. He was able to fill in for me on some of the hands on work which enabled my injury to keep healing instead of getting worse. Another plus to John coming over was his knife abilities. One weird thing, I am not sure I have ever got frost bite and sun burn in the same weekend before.
     

    iChokePeople

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    51   0   1
    Feb 11, 2011
    4,556
    48
    One weird thing, I am not sure I have ever got frost bite and sun burn in the same weekend before.

    Note to future students: if Mike says something like, "hey, it's starting to warm up", get out your snivel gear, it'll be blizzard conditions within 5 minutes.
     

    esrice

    Certified Regular Guy
    Rating - 100%
    20   0   0
    Jan 16, 2008
    24,096
    48
    Indy
    Thanks for the AAR iCP! I have heard of Ryan's legendary roleplaying. Sounds like you had a really squared-away group of guys!
     

    Randy Harris

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 22, 2012
    244
    28
    Thanks for the AAR iCP! I have heard of Ryan's legendary roleplaying. Sounds like you had a really squared-away group of guys!

    Ryan is actually long time student who had quite a background in combatives before he and I ever crossed paths. We met when he came to one of my basic pistol classes and found we "speak the same language"- (not everyone knows what the helmet and underhook/pike are)- and he has been a huge asset to me in teaching this class. He makes an excellent "dedicated badguy roleplayer" who has ZERO ego. He is there performing that role to help the student, not to prove he is a badass. That is the hallmark of a good roleplayer (and the hallmark of a mature person even if he is about half the age of half the people in class). But he also just flat out enjoys doing it. I think he'd pad up and fight every day if he could...
     
    Last edited:

    Randy Harris

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 22, 2012
    244
    28
    Note to future students: if Mike says something like, "hey, it's starting to warm up", get out your snivel gear, it'll be blizzard conditions within 5 minutes.


    Yeah, who'd have thought we'd have a snow/sleet storm and sunburn in the same weekend......
     

    Randy Harris

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 22, 2012
    244
    28
    I always enjoy teaching this class, and this one was no exception. I couldn't have done it without Mike (Cedartop) John, and Ryan.

    And my hat is off to the students who fought through ice, dirt, mud, getting hit with a bat, shanked with training knives, shot with airsoft guns, pummelled with fists and occasionally suffering insult on top of "injury" by sometimes being spoken to a bit discourteously. The point is to enhance the learning experience by putting you in the situation to learn it from the inside, not to just watch someone do it and then play "patty cake" with each other at 10% speed. If there is no adrenalin...there is no real learning at a DNA changing level. Building pages in your mental rolodex for survival is what this class is about.

    And ICP, you are about as frail as an NFL linebacker. If we get in a clinch you can expect to get stabbed....a lot....:D Seriously though, it was good having a guy with your size and BJJ skill in class. This is a class where the students can learn a lot from each other and I think you were value added to the class.

    Thank you gentlemen for working hard. I look forward to seeing you again.
     
    Last edited:

    iChokePeople

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    51   0   1
    Feb 11, 2011
    4,556
    48
    After a few days to process this class, this experience, I've become even more positive about it, more happy that I went, more determined to continue to work this avenue of training, and more appreciative of the things the Suarez crew taught us. It has definitely affected the way I look at the world around me and the way I plan for possibilities.

    Thanks, again, to the Suarez instructors.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,399
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    After a few days to process this class, this experience, I've become even more positive about it, more happy that I went, more determined to continue to work this avenue of training, and more appreciative of the things the Suarez crew taught us. It has definitely affected the way I look at the world around me and the way I plan for possibilities.

    Thanks, again, to the Suarez instructors.

    Definitely glad to hear this. The fact that you are thinking about the class and working it out is great. Feel free to let Randy or I know if you have any questions that didn't come to mind at the time.
     

    Site Supporter

    INGO Supporter

    Latest posts

    Staff online

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    512,936
    Messages
    9,488,072
    Members
    51,509
    Latest member
    muirdrune
    Top Bottom