TRACT Optics

9mm as powerful as a 44 magnum?

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  • JB75

    Marksman
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    Mar 5, 2011
    204
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    fort wayne
    sorry its knock out value not knock down. I think by anding bullet weight and diameter to the feet per second it takes in acount a larger slower bullet could cause more damage than a smaller faster one its just a therory
     

    Hoosier9

    Shooter
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    Feb 27, 2011
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    My main goal is to put a threat down as quickly as possible and put as much energy into the target without wasting energy by exiting the target... expansion and stopping and putting the energy where it needs to go. Hydrostatic would be the primary goal.

    Lots of researchers in the field of ballistics feel that hydrostatic effect of pistol bullets is irrelevant, since they do not generate enough energy to cause permanent damage to most human tissue through temporary cavitation. Rifle bullets do cause this kind of damage, due to the much higher velocity and energy levels involved.

    Even if there is a little bit of damage from hydrostatic shock, I'm not sure that the difference between 400 ft. lbs. of energy and 500 ft. lbs. of energy is enough to justify choosing a 5 shot .357 revolver with a crappy DA trigger, tiny sights and slow reload capability over a small 9mm with 8-11 shots, real sights and a fast reload via a spare magazine.

    If a 9mm JHP to the chest doesn't stop him, neither will a .357 to the chest. The difference is, after 5 tries with the revolver, it has exactly zero ft. lbs. of energy. (Unless you hit him with it, which might be futile with an Airweight :):) A Glock 26 would give you 6 more tries.

    Any good, modern defensive JHP in a service caliber will get you 8-12 inches of penetration. Even the old .38 special put a lot of bad guys in the dirt back in the day, with 158 grain round nose bullets no less. The key is shot placement. After that, I would worry about shot placement. And as a final consideration......shot placement.

    Get yourself a platform that you can shoot fast and accurately, and practice. Double the muzzle energy is not going to save you if you can't effectively make good hits. Quit focusing on the wrong part of the equation.
     

    kyle1058

    Marksman
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    1   0   0
    Jun 6, 2009
    214
    16
    Noble County
    Lots of researchers in the field of ballistics feel that hydrostatic effect of pistol bullets is irrelevant, since they do not generate enough energy to cause permanent damage to most human tissue through temporary cavitation. Rifle bullets do cause this kind of damage, due to the much higher velocity and energy levels involved.

    Even if there is a little bit of damage from hydrostatic shock, I'm not sure that the difference between 400 ft. lbs. of energy and 500 ft. lbs. of energy is enough to justify choosing a 5 shot .357 revolver with a crappy DA trigger, tiny sights and slow reload capability over a small 9mm with 8-11 shots, real sights and a fast reload via a spare magazine.

    If a 9mm JHP to the chest doesn't stop him, neither will a .357 to the chest. The difference is, after 5 tries with the revolver, it has exactly zero ft. lbs. of energy. (Unless you hit him with it, which might be futile with an Airweight :):) A Glock 26 would give you 6 more tries.

    Any good, modern defensive JHP in a service caliber will get you 8-12 inches of penetration. Even the old .38 special put a lot of bad guys in the dirt back in the day, with 158 grain round nose bullets no less. The key is shot placement. After that, I would worry about shot placement. And as a final consideration......shot placement.

    Get yourself a platform that you can shoot fast and accurately, and practice. Double the muzzle energy is not going to save you if you can't effectively make good hits. Quit focusing on the wrong part of the equation.

    Like i said, i wouldn't want shot by a bb gun, let alone a 22LR. Shot placement is key, i don't argue that, but by your talk, a 380 is just as good as a .357 or .44 magnum if you hit the right spot.

    I guess the real question is what can expand and deliver the most damage per round in a single round, be efficient, and with the plus of possibly having extra rounds to follow up with?

    I can miss all day with a .500 magnum, or hit the heart and skull with a .22LR, but the question and topic is directed toward asking what is the best small packing option to deliver the most energy and effectiveness for an ankle or backup gun into a target/attacker, and why can a 9mm dump nearly 500 ft lbs of energy and a 38 special +P is less than half of that?
     

    Hoosier9

    Shooter
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    Feb 27, 2011
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    Like i said, i wouldn't want shot by a bb gun, let alone a 22LR. Shot placement is key, i don't argue that, but by your talk, a 380 is just as good as a .357 or .44 magnum if you hit the right spot.

    I guess the real question is what can expand and deliver the most damage per round in a single round, be efficient, and with the plus of possibly having extra rounds to follow up with?

    I can miss all day with a .500 magnum, or hit the heart and skull with a .22LR, but the question and topic is directed toward asking what is the best small packing option to deliver the most energy and effectiveness for an ankle or backup gun into a target/attacker, and why can a 9mm dump nearly 500 ft lbs of energy and a 38 special +P is less than half of that?

    I never said that .380 is as good as .44 magnum. You are comparing 2 calibers at the end of the spectrum, a cartridge that has trouble penetrating AND expanding to 12" vs. one that expands and blows through an attacker.

    The only thing that I believe ENERGY is useful for in handgun bullets is penetration and expansion. That's it. If a handgun bullet penetrates to the vitals, expands, and comes to rest on the opposite side of the attacker just under the skin, it doesn't matter what caliber it is, the result is the same. A hole through the vitals, a fraction of an inch bigger for a bigger bullet.

    Penetration and expansion tests on modern JHP in service calibers (9mm, .357 Sig, 40 and 45) show that they perform to this standard. Calibers with less energy perform somewhat worse, with either less penetration or less expansion. Those would be calibers with less than 250 ft. lbs., like most .38 special in a snubby and .380 ACP. They'll still work just as well as the service calibers if they cut the spine or hit the brain stem. You can only kill someone so dead.

    As for why a 9mm can make more energy than a .38, I'd imagine it has something to do with the powder used and the design of the case to handle higher pressures. Or the fact that you are comparing a super-hot 9mm out of a service length barrel (500 ft. lbs.) to a lower pressure round out of a 2" barrel with a cylinder gap.

    A .38 in a snub doesn't compare to either a 9mm in a compact pistol or a .357 out of a snub, for energy. The difference between 9mm +P in a compact pistol and .357 magnum in a snub isn't enough of a difference to worry about. No ankle gun is going to give you that "energy dump" that you are looking for. If you want any "energy dump" significant enough to cause damage to human tissue, get an overcoat and a 12 gauge or an AR.

    A good resource. Pay particular attention to pages 4 - 7.

    http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
     
    Last edited:

    kyle1058

    Marksman
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    Jun 6, 2009
    214
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    Noble County
    No, I'm pretty sure you said that you would want to get shot by a bb gun.



    Yep. I think you need to make up your mind on this issue.

    :D

    Nice catch. I'm sure you know that was a typo. :):

    Corbon .380 DPX will penetrate to around 7 inches and expand to 0.70 inch into gelatin through 4 layers of denim and 8 in with no denim. If you hit the right area, this will do the job.

    StoppingPower.net Forums - Corbon .380 80 gr DPX

    Agreed. And thumbs up for Corbon, i've been impressed with their products as much as Speer.


    As far as the discussion goes, I guess maybe energy and penetration have to be considered not just energy to be a good discussion, and most loads are as said, 8-12" of penetration through gel. That's a big guy.

    Thanks everyone.
     

    Amishman44

    Master
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    Dec 30, 2009
    3,146
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    Woodburn
    The hottest 'factory' 9mm I've ever seen, Cor-Bon and Underwood, is delivering in the mid-400# foot lbs of energy disbursement, coming from a 4" barrel, and the average is in the mid 300# of energy.
    To compare 9mm to a .357 magnum or a .44 magnum isn't apples to apples...you're talking 50+% more energy disbursement from a .357 magnum and more than double the energy from a .44 magnum.
     

    russc2542

    Master
    Local Business Supporter
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    Oct 24, 2015
    1,930
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    Columbus
    My 9mm carry ammo is most definitely hotter than my bullseye .44 handloads. They'll penetrate target paper well enough but not a lot more lol. Not exactly standard .44 loads.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Trainer Supporter
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    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    13,163
    113
    Ripley county
    Great explaination. 1150fps/327me out performing 1450fps/583me just didn't pass the sniff test from the onset.
    I'm working on a 124gr load that will eventually be my practice load to mimic my 124gr HP load.
    Last test went well. So I'll be pushing up another 0.1gr. Last test I got 1179fps avg with 124gr Hoosier Bullets RN, and 5.2gr AutoComp.
    My goal is 1206fps avg which is 400 ft lbs of energy.
     
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