.45 vs 9mm

[Squid556]

Belt fed 5.56mm…..aka the SAW!!!….very controllable….and if your shooting on the government’s nickel, you can mow the lawn!!!! Just a little hard to carry concealed, and at 16+ pounds, good upper body workout!!!! Oh to be young again!!!

Love it. In 2015 I got to shoot the SAW off the flight deck. Proned out, bipod down. That thing was like a bullet hose. I was surprised how little recoil it had. That being said…. The 240 was still my favorite.

 

[Lee11b]

Love it. In 2015 I got to shoot the SAW off the flight deck. Proned out, bipod down. That thing was like a bullet hose. I was surprised how little recoil it had. That being said…. The 240 was still my favorite.

240 Bravos!!!! Do wonders on “hojie huts” in Iraq!!!! Save Ma Duece for longer engagements plus saves the tax payers a little dough….so they can buy more Let’s Go Brandon gas from our “friends” the Saudi’s….

Stay focused….45 ACP!!! And VOTE in November!!!!

 

[sixGuns]

9x19 is "inexpensive" (I miss $18.88 100 round packs at Wally) because it's the world's caliber. It does the job effectively enough for 2 legged predators and as such has earned it's place because of that. I wonder how many factory new 9x19 are made for every one .45 ACP.

Everyone always talks about modern bullet design and the 9, but seem to forget it applies to other calibers as well. Modern bullet design is kind of a misnomer in my opinion, it just means a hollowpoint expands reliably at designed velocities and I don't classify that as a scientific achievement, just a byproduct of expanded testing.

Capacity and no manually disabled safeties are my criteria in a pistol. I carried a 1911 for a decade, but I'm done with 1911s and 45 ACP. If I need "more" than 9x19 I'm going 10mm. I don't care about cost, the only ammo I buy is carry ammo as I reload.

To each their own.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

IIRC @BehindBlueI's has statistics that show citizens run into two or more criminals pretty often. BehindBlueI's or another can give you the link to that thread. It's very informative.

Correct.

However, even with multiple attackers, capacity was not a contributing factor to losses in random violence incidents (random meaning not targeted to that specific individual like a domestic or a dope rip). People simply run out of time before running out of ammunition. They are hit and down and lose, or one or more bad guys are down while the rest flee.

As to the rest of the thread, caliber debates are and remain useless. Amalgamations of statistics are useless. Criminals tend to carry cheap ball ammo. Are you carrying cheap ball ammo? Then why do you care what percentage of shootings with cheap ball ammo do with various calibers? "Bigger holes bleed more" is nonsense within the context. Surgeons can't tell the difference between 9mm and .45 wound tracts. You either hit something that matters or you don't, and other than very small calibers like the .22 that can't overwhelm the body's natural ability to control bleeding via swelling, once you cut/crush something that matters you've started their timer.

All of the common duty calibers work, especially when combined with ammunition meeting THE ENTIRETY of the FBI protocols. Stop chasing hardware beyond that, software is 90% of the game.

 

[randyb]

I have been carrying a M&P .45 Shield for quite a while and felt quite comfortable with it. I recently purchased the same gun in 9mm from a member here (thanks Spencir) and find that I am very impressed with the feel of it. So much so that I am seriously considering making it my EDC and retiring my .45 to a HD pistol (along with my Maverick 12 ga that sleeps next to the bed) that will live in an end table next to my recliner.

My question is, would I be under gunned by going from 7 rds of .45 to 8 rds of 9mm? Have a ton of confidence in my .45, but not so sure about the 9mm. Could be due to the fact that I heard to many horror stories about the poor performance of that round back in the 80's and 90's (yes, I am that old).

Any and all comments or observations will be appreciated.

The 9mm will allow faster follow up shots also the round technology has made the 9mm JHP a much more effective round with improved expansion, penetration and wound channel is overall improved. Especially with Win. rangers, federal HST and such. Reading about the ballistic improvements in bullet technology can do a lot to 'ease your mind'. Also looking at many police depts and other LEO agencies use of the 9mm brings the question to mind, if the .45 is so much better then why go to the 9mm?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The 9mm will allow faster follow up shots also the round technology has made the 9mm JHP a much more effective round with improved expansion, penetration and wound channel is overall improved. Especially with Win. rangers, federal HST and such. Reading about the ballistic improvements in bullet technology can do a lot to 'ease your mind'. Also looking at many police depts and other LEO agencies use of the 9mm brings the question to mind, if the .45 is so much better then why go to the 9mm?

Part of the reason is cars. 9mm, and .40S&W, penetrate sheet metal at more angles than .45 and tend to actually expand more than .45 through auto glass. .45 really needs to be +P to compete. Ball ammo and non-bonded junk ammo inverts this, as a broken .45 will still be heavy enough to penetrate vs a shattered 9mm, but a 9mm that holds together keeps more of it's velocity and can expand once it's in meat.

 

[churchmouse]

Correct.

However, even with multiple attackers, capacity was not a contributing factor to losses in random violence incidents (random meaning not targeted to that specific individual like a domestic or a dope rip). People simply run out of time before running out of ammunition. They are hit and down and lose, or one or more bad guys are down while the rest flee.

As to the rest of the thread, caliber debates are and remain useless. Amalgamations of statistics are useless. Criminals tend to carry cheap ball ammo. Are you carrying cheap ball ammo? Then why do you care what percentage of shootings with cheap ball ammo do with various calibers? "Bigger holes bleed more" is nonsense within the context. Surgeons can't tell the difference between 9mm and .45 wound tracts. You either hit something that matters or you don't, and other than very small calibers like the .22 that can't overwhelm the body's natural ability to control bleeding via swelling, once you cut/crush something that matters you've started their timer.

All of the common duty calibers work, especially when combined with ammunition meeting THE ENTIRETY of the FBI protocols. Stop chasing hardware beyond that, software is 90% of the game.

When I was very young, maybe 10 years old I remember my uncle getting in a fight with the neighbor and he was shot 1 time with a .22 revolver. Uncle was 6'3" and a beast of a man. The bullet entered his chest and ricochet of his ribs tearing up his lung. He drowned in his own blood in short order.

 

[thelefthand]

I just take what I've seen hunting and apply it to the human factor. Big heavy bullets in handguns drop deer better than faster and lighter bullets. Shouldn't it be the same for the human critter?

I've actually had a different experience in the field. Over the past 30+ years and a group of 4 to 6 hunters per year, we've taken over 300 deer. We've used archery equipment, ball and patch muzzleloaders, modern inline muzzleloaders, 44 mag pistols (both revolver and single shot), shotguns with all variations of slugs, hand cannons, and a variety of high power rifles. Without exception, across all 300 deer, if the CNS was not hit and the projectile penetrated both lungs and/or the heart, the deer ALL run 50 to 100 yds and fall over. Now, some have a lot more tissue damage than others depending on what they were shot with, but it still takes them the same amount of time to expire even on heart shots. As far as damage goes, it's mainly tied to velocity, but not completely. It's also tied to the projectiles ability to retain velocity as it expands. Basically, much under 2000 fps the tissue damage isn't all that impressive. 2200 to 3000 fps has noticeable tissue damage at the entry wound, but damage to the organs depends on the retained velocity. Damage at the exit wound depends on expanded diameter and exit velocity. I'm currently using a 6.5 Grendel with a 105gr monolithic hp running 2800 fps at the muzzle. Damage is about the same that I had with a 100gr tsx from my 25-06 at 3200 fps and my 7-08 hand cannon with 140gr nosler BTs at 2500 fps. By far, the most damage consistently came from my Savage ML that fires 300gr SST at 2450 fps or a 250gr SST at 2600 fps. The 250gr load produces 3600 fp of KE. I shot deer from 60 lb to over 200 lb at ranges from 10 yds to 200 yds. Every time the projectile was laying under the hide on the far side. Every time, the deer ran 50 to 100 yds. Every time, the internals were nothing but mush. It was normal to be able to drop a base ball through the entrance wound. 300 gr load produces just under 4,000 fp of ke and always exits. The exit wound is often softball size. I stopped using it during firearms season because after over a decade, I got tired of throwing away both front quarters. Main point here is that ALL of those deer lived for another 30 seconds and ran 50 to 100 yds just like those shot with my bow and a 100 gr thunderhead. That's how long their brain and bodies functioned with no blood flow and no blood pressure.

Whether a 9mm or 45 does more damage depends on the projectile being used, the barrel length, and whether or not they hit any bone (bone can become effective shrapnel). The one that does more damage MAY gain you some margin on shot placement which can be important, but they are still closer in performance to a bow and arrow than to that Savage ML. Regardless, you need to be able to penetrate BOTH lungs or the heart, or sever the CNS to reliably stop a threat, and without a hit to the CNS, the threat can still live long enough to kill you and your family.

 

[DadSmith]

I've actually had a different experience in the field. Over the past 30+ years and a group of 4 to 6 hunters per year, we've taken over 300 deer. We've used archery equipment, ball and patch muzzleloaders, modern inline muzzleloaders, 44 mag pistols (both revolver and single shot), shotguns with all variations of slugs, hand cannons, and a variety of high power rifles. Without exception, across all 300 deer, if the CNS was not hit and the projectile penetrated both lungs and/or the heart, the deer ALL run 50 to 100 yds and fall over. Now, some have a lot more tissue damage than others depending on what they were shot with, but it still takes them the same amount of time to expire even on heart shots. As far as damage goes, it's mainly tied to velocity, but not completely. It's also tied to the projectiles ability to retain velocity as it expands. Basically, much under 2000 fps the tissue damage isn't all that impressive. 2200 to 3000 fps has noticeable tissue damage at the entry wound, but damage to the organs depends on the retained velocity. Damage at the exit wound depends on expanded diameter and exit velocity. I'm currently using a 6.5 Grendel with a 105gr monolithic hp running 2800 fps at the muzzle. Damage is about the same that I had with a 100gr tsx from my 25-06 at 3200 fps and my 7-08 hand cannon with 140gr nosler BTs at 2500 fps. By far, the most damage consistently came from my Savage ML that fires 300gr SST at 2450 fps or a 250gr SST at 2600 fps. The 250gr load produces 3600 fp of KE. I shot deer from 60 lb to over 200 lb at ranges from 10 yds to 200 yds. Every time the projectile was laying under the hide on the far side. Every time, the deer ran 50 to 100 yds. Every time, the internals were nothing but mush. It was normal to be able to drop a base ball through the entrance wound. 300 gr load produces just under 4,000 fp of ke and always exits. The exit wound is often softball size. I stopped using it during firearms season because after over a decade, I got tired of throwing away both front quarters. Main point here is that ALL of those deer lived for another 30 seconds and ran 50 to 100 yds just like those shot with my bow and a 100 gr thunderhead. That's how long their brain and bodies functioned with no blood flow and no blood pressure.

Whether a 9mm or 45 does more damage depends on the projectile being used, the barrel length, and whether or not they hit any bone (bone can become effective shrapnel). The one that does more damage MAY gain you some margin on shot placement which can be important, but they are still closer in performance to a bow and arrow than to that Savage ML. Regardless, you need to be able to penetrate BOTH lungs or the heart, or sever the CNS to reliably stop a threat, and without a hit to the CNS, the threat can still live long enough to kill you and your family.

Okay so what weight was your 44 magnum handgun bullets?
I've done deer hunting with handgun instead of shotgun for years in Indiana. I've used XTP's in 240gr and 300gr. Both did the job. The 300gr did a lot more damage so I stopped using them.

 

[Born2vette]

This is an interesting chart. It shows that 56% of 9mm shootings are fatal. .40 is 54% and .45 jumps to 66%. .357 Mag comes in at about 72%.

It also shows shot placement counts a lot. Look at fatality of head/neck shots vs torso (chest/abdomen/back) vs arms/legs.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

When I was very young, maybe 10 years old I remember my uncle getting in a fight with the neighbor and he was shot 1 time with a .22 revolver. Uncle was 6'3" and a beast of a man. The bullet entered his chest and ricochet of his ribs tearing up his lung. He drowned in his own blood in short order.

Must have got one of the major blood vessels. Sever one of those, you're on a pretty short countdown.

 

[Leadeye]

Must have got one of the major blood vessels. Sever one of those, you're on a pretty short countdown.

Certainly works for the hunter.

 

[Leadeye]

Love it. In 2015 I got to shoot the SAW off the flight deck. Proned out, bipod down. That thing was like a bullet hose. I was surprised how little recoil it had. That being said…. The 240 was still my favorite.

That high speed belt fed stuff is expensive fun.

 

[JAL]

If I need to penetrate a modest barrier . . . car sheet metal or window glass . . . I'll go with the Elmer Keith .357 Magnum in a 4" barrel and original loads with jacketed hollow points vs some of the lighter loads made today for the tiny snubbies . . . with a couple speed loaders. Otherwise I'm a fan of the .45 ACP or a modern .45 (Long) Colt with the hotter carbine loads. I've got a Blackhawk SA, and the Redhawk DA is tempting. Then there is always the .41 Magnum which would do one better than the .357 Magnum for barrier penetration, albeit with the ammo scarcity. The .44 Mag is a bit much, especially for follow-up, in spite of Dirty Harry's Model 29.

John

 

[BehindBlueI's]

That high speed belt fed stuff is expensive fun.

Range day: Turning money in to smoke and noise.

 

[JAL]

That high speed belt fed stuff is expensive fun.

I used the M-60 - a heavy beast with basic ammo load - but reliable and did its job quite well. Best hauled around by two but can be used by one. The Ma Deuce was the Hammer of God and worked best with a team of two.

John

 

[Leadeye]

Still my personal favorite, as long as you have ammo and barrels it does anything you want, quickly.

 

[Ziggidy]

When I was very young, maybe 10 years old I remember my uncle getting in a fight with the neighbor and he was shot 1 time with a .22 revolver. Uncle was 6'3" and a beast of a man. The bullet entered his chest and ricochet of his ribs tearing up his lung. He drowned in his own blood in short order.

I was in medical my entire career. I remember back in late 70's we had a suicide attempt with an older guy (older to me since I was young). Apparently he took a 22 to his chest and shot himself. He lived. I managed his respirator and went with him to CT, OR and such. They could never find the bullet nor did they ever find an exit wound. If I was not apart of it I would never believe it. He was on the vent for a long time and then transfered to an extended facility where he ended up dying of an UTI / sepsis. We became friends and he told me his story. I met his family and understand why he was so depressed.

Anyway, that is my 22 story. It didn't kill him but it surely stopped him.

 

[thelefthand]

Still my personal favorite, as long as you have ammo and barrels it does anything you want, quickly. View attachment 208946

I got the chance to shoot one of those several weeks ago. Very impressive.

 

[xwing]

... now that you mention it, wasn't there a record grizzly taken with a .22 LR up north somewhere ... by a little girl? I believe I read it on the inter-webz.

.

Actually a few cases of a bear being stopped with 22LR. Although it is less effective, it is not entirely ineffective. Interesting article. Basically, if you use any handgun to shoot the bear, you have a very high chance of surviving the encounter. Not that anyone sane would recommend 22LR for this use, but anything is far better than nothing! (and IMO it's the same with carry caliber.)

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/up...r-attack-93-cases-97-effective/#axzz7XjKt6JoB