.45 vs 9mm

[DoggyDaddy]

That and bigger holes bleed more.

A 9mm may expand, but a 45 will never shrink.

 

[Ziggidy]

I have no data except what y'all have talked about and have come to "my" conclusion.

1) I refuse to be a test dummy for either
2) At his point in my life it would cost too much to upgrade to a bigger round
3) Properly placed, neither person will run very far

 

[88E30M50]

The biggest challenge for me with 9mm is slowing down enough to keep things tight. WIth .40, .357 Sig and .45, I naturally take shots individually but with 9mm, I tend to ride the front sight more. Heavier calibers make me a better shot.

I know that this is a training issue but over the years, I’ve found that with few exceptions, if there is a gun available in both calibers (G19/G23, P07, P09, P229, P226), I tend to shoot .40 or .357 Sig better than I do 9mm unless I force myself to slow the pace of the 9mm. 9mm is fun though.

 

[tcecil88]

I will say, even though I shoot 9mm for the most part, the .45 I shot most accurately was my buddy's 1918 issue Colt 1911. That classic pistol was absolutely awesome.

 

[churchmouse]

Don't underestimate the 9mm. It is the best selling less-than-leathal round sold today.

90% of the reason is cost. How many threads/remarks are always because the round is cheap by comparison. Thats always the argument and I get it. If you train like you are supposed to its not cheap with a 45 and its silly spendy with a 10mm. Yeah, I get it but it's mostly about the expense with many shooters or casual owners.

 

[deputy882]

I recently acquired a Glock 21 in .45ACP and have 2 1911's. I have been shooting and handloading for 51 years and I would rather have the edge of the ballistics in the .45 over the 9mm. After retiring from 21 years of law enforcement, I love the .40 S&W. It is a great compromise between the other 2 and is like the old 30-06, in that there are so many different bullet sizes from 135 grains to 200 grains which covers the needs for all uses. I own 3 Glocks in .40 and use them all.

 

[88E30M50]

.40 is a great caliber. It's what I own the most of and is a best of both worlds caliber

 

[venenoindy]

I heard at a gun shop that .45 acp kills the body and the soul.

 

[thelefthand]

As most have said either is fine, use what you shoot the best with.

Remember that most of the damage is a result of the speed of the impact. That's why 10mm, 357 mag, and 357 Sig perform so well. It's also why the difference in damage between 9mm, 40, and 45 are almost indistinguishable compared to a 5.56 ball ammo from a 10.5" barrel. Switch the 5.56 to an expanding projectiles and it makes a handgun look somewhat useless.

But, since we are trying to see how many times we can split a hair..... When most people talk about how the 9mm is just as good as a 45, they are talking about full size handguns where 9mm is running 1200 fps or more and 230 gr 45 is running 950 to 1000 fps. When you drop into the subcompact class, velocities decrease, and more so for the 9mm. 125gr 9mm loads are going to run 1000 to 1100 fps in a shield where 185 gr 45 loads are still running 950 to 1000 fps. This changes the conversion for both cartridges. IF you can find a 185gr 45 load that expands reliably at 950 fps, it is likely to do as much or more damage than the 9mm running 1050, but I've only found 2 45 loads that will consistently expand at that speed and the expanded diameter was equivalent to the same load in 9mm. That only left me with loads the use the 185gr Barnes DPX projectiles which were down right NASTY critters. Either way, the struggle with sub compact pistols is finding a projectile that is designed to perform at the slower than "normal" velocities.

Just my 2 bits

 

[Squid556]

I’m surprised we are still having this debate……

Both are fine, pick good ammo and learn to shoot it fast and straight. Your issue of “undergunned” I don’t think will matter much in most civilian defense encounters.

You’re probably going to be undergunned if you have a job or go places that would pit you against MULTIPLE attackers. In which case you are gonna want something much more substantial than a single stack handgun.

 

[DadSmith]

I’m surprised we are still having this debate……

Both are fine, pick good ammo and learn to shoot it fast and straight. Your issue of “undergunned” I don’t think will matter much in most civilian defense encounters.

You’re probably going to be undergunned if you have a job or go places that would pit you against MULTIPLE attackers. In which case you are gonna want something much more substantial than a single stack handgun.

IIRC @BehindBlueI's has statistics that show citizens run into two or more criminals pretty often. BehindBlueI's or another can give you the link to that thread. It's very informative.

 

[Patrick Taylor]

 

[Squid556]

IIRC @BehindBlueI's has statistics that show citizens run into two or more criminals pretty often. BehindBlueI's or another can give you the link to that thread. It's very informative.

From what I’ve seen two attackers does seem to happen fairly often. So yeah by that statistic go for capacity. I tend to value capacity over a slightly “better” caliber.

I used to watch a lot of the Active Self Protection channel on YouTube. Shows lots of real world encounters. Learn a lot from security cam footage, badge cam, home cameras. I’ve seen a guy in Cali try to hold up a store, owner ventilated him with a 45 seven times. Guy changed his mind and ran out the door. (Expired in the road). Doesn’t mean 45 is good or bad. Just means that he didn’t hit anything important enough to stop it immediately.

Although when I said multiple I was meaning more like 3+. For instance, if you were armed security for a bank, or an armored car driver…. Much more likely to have multiple threats (and need high capacity) rather than going for a jog and dealing with a mugger.

I think as enthusiasts we tend to split hairs and focus on the macros a bit.

Disclaimer, I have no dog in the fight. I’ve carried .22, .25, .32, .380, 9, 45. They all have their purpose and place.

 

[DadSmith]

From what I’ve seen two attackers does seem to happen fairly often. So yeah by that statistic go for capacity. I tend to value capacity over a slightly “better” caliber.

I used to watch a lot of the Active Self Protection channel on YouTube. Shows lots of real world encounters. Learn a lot from security cam footage, badge cam, home cameras. I’ve seen a guy in Cali try to hold up a store, owner ventilated him with a 45 seven times. Guy changed his mind and ran out the door. (Expired in the road). Doesn’t mean 45 is good or bad. Just means that he didn’t hit anything important enough to stop it immediately.

Although when I said multiple I was meaning more like 3+. For instance, if you were armed security for a bank, or an armored car driver…. Much more likely to have multiple threats (and need high capacity) rather than going for a jog and dealing with a mugger.

I think as enthusiasts we tend to split hairs and focus on the macros a bit.

Disclaimer, I have no dog in the fight. I’ve carried .22, .25, .32, .380, 9, 45. They all have their purpose and place.

I carry 10mm, 45acp and 9mm depending on the situation I'm going to be in.
I like the 45acp to me it seems to be a more accurate round. I do reload my carry ammo so I usually carry Gold Dot or XTP for the 45acp.
I use CFE Pistol and 230gr XTPs or G Dots.
Out of my 1911 they avg around 950 fps, and that's still below maximum pressure of 21000.
That's 460 ft lbs of energy at 15' or if I added correctly 218 power factor.
I feel confident with the more powerful 45acp.
I just take what I've seen hunting and apply it to the human factor. Big heavy bullets in handguns drop deer better than faster and lighter bullets. Shouldn't it be the same for the human critter?

 

[Squid556]

I carry 10mm, 45acp and 9mm depending on the situation I'm going to be in.
I like the 45acp to me it seems to be a more accurate round. I do reload my carry ammo so I usually carry Gold Dot or XTP for the 45acp.
I use CFE Pistol and 230gr XTPs or G Dots.
Out of my 1911 they avg around 950 fps, and that's still below maximum pressure of 21000.
That's 460 ft lbs of energy at 15' or if I added correctly 218 power factor.
I feel confident with the more powerful 45acp.
I just take what I've seen hunting and apply it to the human factor. Big heavy bullets in handguns drop deer better than faster and lighter bullets. Shouldn't it be the same for the human critter?

Absolutely. I think bigger and better holes SHOULD accelerate that clock, gets the threat to stop sooner. Assuming you don’t hit something important to stop instantly.

 

[88E30M50]

View attachment 208862

This is an interesting chart. It shows that 56% of 9mm shootings are fatal. .40 is 54% and .45 jumps to 66%. .357 Mag comes in at about 72%.

 

[churchmouse]

This is an interesting chart. It shows that 56% of 9mm shootings are fatal. .40 is 54% and .45 jumps to 66%. .357 Mag comes in at about 72%.

But but but…,,9mm is cheap to shoot.
Cheap wins right

 

[Lee11b]

I do not have an answer but I do have a comment.
9mm is the largest selling ammo next to the 223/556; secondly the FBI uses 9mm.

Looking into the future? What is most available and what is most affordable.

Affordable???…..lol…..miss the pre-Oblama days……$7.99 for a box of UMC (Remington) 9mm at high priced Dunham’s…..if I could go back 15 years for a half an hour / with an untraceable, wife proof, credit card…..
I like 45….soft shooting and leaves BIG holes

 

[Lee11b]

I have read some of the Alaskans carry the 10mm up in bear country.

But a 22, with proper placement in your buddy’s knee cap, guarantees your not bear breakfast….just make sure your out of the woods before lunch….don’t think proper shot placement of the pee shooter is going to stop a hungry grizzly bear!!

 

[Lee11b]

I’m surprised we are still having this debate……

Both are fine, pick good ammo and learn to shoot it fast and straight. Your issue of “undergunned” I don’t think will matter much in most civilian defense encounters.

You’re probably going to be undergunned if you have a job or go places that would pit you against MULTIPLE attackers. In which case you are gonna want something much more substantial than a single stack handgun.

Belt fed 5.56mm…..aka the SAW!!!….very controllable….and if your shooting on the government’s nickel, you can mow the lawn!!!! Just a little hard to carry concealed, and at 16+ pounds, good upper body workout!!!! Oh to be young again!!!