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  • SheepDog4Life

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    Hmmm, good idea! Wonder if it would be possible to add a couple more holes, like for half full and another for 3 rounds remaining?
    Yes, wish I had came up with it, I didn't, but by golly I sure will "steal' a good idea when I see one! :):

    Regarding the 3/5 rnd witness holes, I would say yes since it's a rotary mag and those are distant from the feed lips, with a couple caveats.

    First, you'd probably need a clear mag to establish an index for the right spot for those on the face plate. The "full" witness is easy because of the shoulder on the mag gives a radial center line for the hole.

    Second, for those witness holes, I'd say only drill them when disassembled to avoid nicking the follower fins. I did not do so for the full witness, but disassembled afterwards for cleaning, and they were fine... YMMV.
     
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    Yes, wish I had came up with it, I didn't, but by golly I sure will "steal' a good idea when I see one! :):

    Regarding the 3/5 rnd witness holes, I would say yes since it's a rotary mag and those are distant from the feed lips, with a couple caveats.

    First, you'd probably need a clear mag to establish an index for the right spot for those on the face plate. The "full" witness is easy because of the shoulder on the mag gives a radial center line for the hole.

    Second, for those witness holes, I'd say only drill them when disassembled to avoid nicking the follower fins. I did not do so for the full witness, but disassembled afterwards for cleaning, and they were fine... YMMV.
    Yeah, I got an idea to make it work but it will take a little time and that is something I'm a little short on this week. Got a pile of spares so if one gets trashed no biggie.
     

    Bill2905

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    Feb 1, 2021
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    This is my CZ457 Varmint .22 LR that I have had for about two years. The stock is a Boyd's Pro Varmint. I just picked up the refurbished Viper HST 6-24X50 from A&A Optics last week. I wanted more magnification for small target work at 100-200 yards. Other accessories include a DIP 25 MOA rail, EGW Keystone rings and a MCARBO extended magazine release. It normally sits on a Caldwell BR rest and rear bag. It will shoot half inch groups (occasionally smaller) at 50 yards when I stay out of the way. With the ammo shortage of the past year, there hasn't been much opportunity to find which ammo it likes best yet.

    0E901BC4-D7CD-43E0-BD35-7C403C527334_1_105_c.jpeg
     

    DadSmith

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    This is my CZ457 Varmint .22 LR that I have had for about two years. The stock is a Boyd's Pro Varmint. I just picked up the refurbished Viper HST 6-24X50 from A&A Optics last week. I wanted more magnification for small target work at 100-200 yards. Other accessories include a DIP 25 MOA rail, EGW Keystone rings and a MCARBO extended magazine release. It normally sits on a Caldwell BR rest and rear bag. It will shoot half inch groups (occasionally smaller) at 50 yards when I stay out of the way. With the ammo shortage of the past year, there hasn't been much opportunity to find which ammo it likes best yet.

    View attachment 148814
    Have you tried Eley force?
    Sign up and when they are in stock you get notified. Many rifles shot well with Eley force.
     

    KMaC

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    Thanks for renewing this thread. Nobody has posted any photos, target results, comments, nuttin. Come on .22lr shooters lets hear from you.

    Dad Smith, I bought some Eley Force last year thinking it was the same as Eley Action Plus (rebranded seconds for ammo that doesn't meet their standards), they have the same specs. But it didn't shoot as well as the Action Plus in a Ruger Precision Rimfire. I thought it was odd since it was same manufacturer and same specs.
     

    KMaC

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    Nice group.
    I have found that ,22lr guns all have their own personality. The RPR and a CZ MTR have completely different tastes in ammo. I just have to find what works for each.
     

    Bill2905

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    Have you tried Eley force?
    Sign up and when they are in stock you get notified. Many rifles shot well with Eley force.
    It shoots best so far with SK Match red box. CCI SV isn't too bad either. I'll check out Eley.

    I also have two boxes of SK long distance match ammo which I have not yet tried.
     

    KMaC

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    Here's my best 5 shot group of the summer, shot at 50 yds from a bench with front/rear bags with a CZ 457 MTR, Vortex Diamondback Tactical 4-16-44 scope, SK Standard Plus ammo.
    P1020709.JPG P1020691.JPG I'm having trouble coming up with an accurate measurement. The group measures ,342 edge to edge, including black smudge from bullet or any tear. There isn't enough defined bullet hole at each end for me to feel comfortable estimating the center of the hole.
    Instead I have measured single bullet holes from several other shots on the same paper and paste on target that vary from .178 to .194.
    Subtracting the width of a bullet hole from the group size would give a center to center group measurement of .148 to .164 depending on which size hole is chosen as representative of a single shot.
    This method seems sound in theory but common sense tells me it is not possible for a 5 shot group to be smaller than a single shot hole.
    Can anyone tell me what I am misunderstanding or how I'm miscalculating? P1020700.JPG
     

    T-DOGG

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    Bullet diameter of a 22LR is 0.224". Measuring just the diameter of the grease mark (black ring) is incorrect. You'll find measuring to the torn area is more accurate.
     

    T-DOGG

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    I've been playing around with 22 stuff most of the year. Dabbled in NRL22 stuff for a bit, think I'm done with that though, lost interest.


    Here's my 457 Pro Varmint in a KRG Bravo chassis with an Arken SH4 GenII 6-24x50 scope.

    20211105_091030.jpg

    Working through and sorting out inconsistencies in my shooting still, but Lapua Center X showed some promise.

    20211004_192603 - Copy.jpg

    Last trip out showed some better consistency with Eley Club and Target.

    20211101_194252.jpg

    I've got a Harrel Rimfire Tuner to play around with still, but I need to iron out shooter induced errors first.
     

    KMaC

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    Bullet diameter of a 22LR is 0.224". Measuring just the diameter of the grease mark (black ring) is incorrect. You'll find measuring to the torn area is more accurate.
    Need clarification.
    You propose: measure the exact bullet hole(s) edge to edge (no smudge area included for both group and single shot?

    I see that as more accurate but isn't the result artificially smaller group size?

    Or
    You propose:
    "Torn area" being any ragged tear leading away from the hole?

    I am including any ragged tear outside the hole. "The group measures ,342 edge to edge, including black smudge from bullet or any tear."
     

    T-DOGG

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    I guess I'm saying measuring them is tricky and some paper targets make it very difficult to be accurate.

    The grease mark doesn't always measure perfectly round, the tears can be hard to see and you just do the best you can. Using a ballistic app might be easier in some cases than using calipers.

    Here is what I've noticed. The grease mark is smaller than 0.224", but the "edge of tear to edge of tear" is much closer to 0.224".

    20211111_222754.jpg

    And not perfectly round either.

    20211111_222852.jpg

    20211111_222924.jpg

    On groups that aren't "one ragged hole", I find measuring a little easier. Generally I measure from outside edge of the grease mark of the one hole to the inside edge of the grease mark on the furthest hole. This requires no math and gives you a center to center measurement.

    20211111_221829.jpg

    Here's the center to center measurement.

    20211111_221910.jpg

    And here's the same method using the tear edges instead of the grease mark edges. It's pretty close. I had to play with the angle and lighting to illustrate the tears better for the picture.

    20211111_222142.jpg

    Another tear edge to tear edge. This one isn't 100% spot on. Again, not a perfect system of measuring.

    20211111_222443.jpg

    On the groups that are one ragged hole, I would set my calipers to 0.224", look for the tear edges and try to get an idea if the tear edges are correct and deduct 0.224" from the outside edge to outside edge measurement. I think that's what you were doing?

    Keep in mind, I'm just an average guy who dabbles, some of these things are my own conclusions. People who shoot competitions where groups are scored precisely by actual experts will come along and correct me.
     
    Last edited:

    KMaC

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    I guess I'm saying measuring them is tricky and some paper targets make it very difficult to be accurate.

    The grease mark doesn't always measure perfectly round, the tears can be hard to see and you just do the best you can. Using a ballistic app might be easier in some cases than using calipers.

    Here is what I've noticed. The grease mark is smaller than 0.224", but the "edge of tear to edge of tear" is much closer to 0.224".

    View attachment 167379

    And not perfectly round either.

    View attachment 167380

    View attachment 167381

    On groups that aren't "one ragged hole", I find measuring a little easier. Generally I measure from outside edge of the grease mark of the one hole to the inside edge of the grease mark on the furthest hole. This requires no math and gives you a center to center measurement.

    View attachment 167382

    Here's the center to center measurement.

    View attachment 167383

    And here's the same method using the tear edges instead of the grease mark edges. It's pretty close. I had to play with the angle and lighting to illustrate the tears better for the picture.

    View attachment 167385

    Another tear edge to tear edge. This one isn't 100% spot on. Again, not a perfect system of measuring.

    View attachment 167386

    On the groups that are one ragged hole, I would set my calipers to 0.224", look for the tear edges and try to get an idea if the tear edges are correct and deduct 0.224" from the outside edge to outside edge measurement. I think that's what you were doing?

    Keep in mind, I'm just an average guy who dabbles, some of these things are my own conclusions. People who shoot competitions where groups are scored precisely by actual experts will come along and correct me.
    Thanks for clearing up my understanding of your terminology with a detailed, illustrated explanation. We're on the same page.
    If I'm dealing with one hole group I deduct the standard width of a single bullet hole for that type of paper from the group's outside dimensions. In my example that would be group .342 minus single hole .194 = .148 group center to center
    Now I need to think about your method using actual bullet width .224 is more accurate than using bullet hole width .194
     

    mcapo

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    Mar 19, 2016
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    East of Hoosier45 - West of T-dogg
    When determining scoring on a ring target, to the best of my knowledge ( :lmfao::facepalm: :lmfao: ), the standard is the "leaded edge" of the hole. If the leaded edge breaks or touches the scoring line, it counts for that higher score.

    That's how I measure groups, as well. Inner edge to outer edge of furthest impacts and then a quick center-to-center check to verify.

    It seems like some paper targets (thick/dense) tear very near the leaded edge and some tear very inconsistently.
     
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