Irrelevant. This is a police encounter. The police can shoot a fleeing felon if there is probable cause that there is imminent danger to the officer or the public. That's a simplification, and there are obviously many variables that can come into play, but no such authority exists for a non-LEO to shoot a person who is fleeing. (That I am aware of)
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14-year-old with airsoft gun shot dead by Tempe Arizona police officer
- Thread starter ArcadiaGP
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Irrelevant. This is a police encounter. The police can shoot a fleeing felon if there is probable cause that there is imminent danger to the officer or the public. That's a simplification, and there are obviously many variables that can come into play, but no such authority exists for a non-LEO to shoot a person who is fleeing. (That I am aware of)
Thanks, Denney.
MCgrease08
Grandmaster
That's why on left out any comment regarding the officer's action. Just making a point for the vast majority of the members here that aren't LEOs, but self-defenders.
I recall one of the scenarios from BBI's Defensive Concepts class that was similar. I believe it was a case of a guy breaking into cars. The good guy confronted him and the bad guy took off. Good guy's predator drive kicked in and he fired shots as BG ran away.
My only point is that those of us that aren't LEOs need to be aware of the potential for that predator drive to kick in. It likely wouldn't end well for the average Joe.
CHCRandy
Master
Without knowing all the various laws, protocols etc and just looking at the poorish video I'm guessing it's not going to be considered a clean shoot. I am impressed that he scored a hit from that apparent distance on a moving target. The kid appears to be a considerable distance off, moving away from the cop, hands and arms in running posture, didn't turn to the cop at any time. Shooting appeared to be a way to stop a fleeing suspect. Maybe that's legal?
I'm glad somebody else gets to make those decisions with ALL of the available evidence.
I thought the same thing about distance until I calculated it. From the time the cop stops, aims and shoots, the distance between him and his target was less than 60 feet. I figured this by figuring the distance between fence posts, plus the number of strides the officer took. You also have to keep in mind he was within 20 feet of the guy when the guy was exiting the truck....I think he may have seen the weapon then. At the end of the video that sure looks like a gun in the kids hand. I bet it was a lot more visible in real life. I don't know if it was good or bad...like you, I am glad I don't have to decide that.
Frank_N_Stein
Grandmaster
So you are able to think 100% clearly after an adrenaline dump and during a life or death encounter? Bravo, we could use you as an instructor.
I see issues with the use of force in this one from what I see on the video. Hopefully there is more to it that isn't shown on the video and the officer's actions were reasonable.
As far as using cover, good cover isn't always available. As an officer, at some point you have to advance and leave your position of safety to resolve a situation. Cover is better than concealment but concealment is better than nothing at all.
As far as using cover, good cover isn't always available. As an officer, at some point you have to advance and leave your position of safety to resolve a situation. Cover is better than concealment but concealment is better than nothing at all.
What was the felony in this instance?
I didn't say there was one. I was just contrasting non-LEO vs. LEO rules of engagement.
daddyusmaximus
Grandmaster
I WAS an instructor. An Infantry Drill Sgt who went on to serve in 3 combat tours during his 28 years in the Army... (although the last one was as an 88M) I'm a fat old cripple now.
By the way, the taking cover was just after he exited the patrol unit. It was PRIOR to the engagement, so he should NOT have been rattled yet. And yeah, I noticed it in like 2 seconds flat, and I've lived through plenty of adrenaline dumps and "life or death" encounters. The last one made me the cripple I am today.
Not saying I'm perfect.
Think 100% clearly? No.
Think clear enough not to take cover behind a plastic trash can? Yes. Every time.
Just saying that could have cost him dearly had the kid really been armed. I'm hoping someone points it out to him so he can learn from it.
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Denny347
Grandmaster
Without knowing all the various laws, protocols etc and just looking at the poorish video I'm guessing it's not going to be considered a clean shoot. I am impressed that he scored a hit from that apparent distance on a moving target. The kid appears to be a considerable distance off, moving away from the cop, hands and arms in running posture, didn't turn to the cop at any time. Shooting appeared to be a way to stop a fleeing suspect. Maybe that's legal?
I'm glad somebody else gets to make those decisions with ALL of the available evidence.
It's quite hard to know what the distance actually was as it appears that the camera has a fisheye lens. I'm quite sure the actual distance is closer than it appeared. Shooting a fleeing person CAN be justified, under certain circumstances.
UTL
Marksman
The last one I remember in Marion county, the guy saw someone stealing stuff out of his truck. Shot and killed the suspect. No charges filed, this was probably 10 years ago.
UTL
Marksman
Without knowing all the various laws, protocols etc and just looking at the poorish video I'm guessing it's not going to be considered a clean shoot. I am impressed that he scored a hit from that apparent distance on a moving target. The kid appears to be a considerable distance off, moving away from the cop, hands and arms in running posture, didn't turn to the cop at any time. Shooting appeared to be a way to stop a fleeing suspect. Maybe that's legal?
I'm glad somebody else gets to make those decisions with ALL of the available evidence.
I believe Tennessee v. Garner covers this.
Just watched the video, sucks. I would need more information
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Fargo
Grandmaster
Tenn v. Garner sets the standard under which such a use of force is/isn't constitutional under the 4th amendment. It does not automatically make such a use of force legal under state or federal statute, it just means it isn't a fourth amendment violation. That said, many state statutes largely mirror the standard from Tennessee v. Garner.
I haven't seen anything that would indicate the officer had reason to believe the person in the vehicle was armed. LE work is risky all the time. You can't get out of your vehicle, hide behind cover (cars suck for cover anyway) and start giving commands on every situation, especially if you hope to apprehend anyone (there are terms for those who do this). I didn't see any fault in the officer's tactics approaching the vehicle.
Denny347
Grandmaster
Yup, sometimes we are just trying to use concealment to be sneaky.
Clay Pigeon
Shooter
daddyusmaximus
Grandmaster
Then why did he draw his weapon...
and take up a position behind what he thought was cover?
(that was actually concealment)
Did you see the same video I did?
The officer draws his weapon right after he moves behind the trash can.
(or at least that's when he brings it up into view of the body cam)
His suspect is still in the cab of the truck.
Clearly he thought something was amiss.
But plastic trashcans are bullet proof? There are certain parts of a vehicle that offer better protection than the sheet metal body. LEOs learn this. (or are suppose to)
Sorry, but I did.
Luckily for him the kid wasn't truly an armed, harden criminal.
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Then why did he draw his weapon...
and take up a position behind what he thought was cover?
(that was actually concealment)
Did you see the same video I did?
The officer draws his weapon right after he moves behind the trash can.
(or at least that's when he brings it up into view of the body cam)
His suspect is still in the cab of the truck.
Clearly he thought something was amiss.
But plastic trashcans are bullet proof? There are certain parts of a vehicle that offer better protection than the sheet metal body. LEOs learn this. (or are suppose to)
Sorry, but I did.
Luckily for him the kid wasn't truly an armed, harden criminal.
Do you think most officers apprehend people with holstered guns and "authoritative" commands?
...not in today's society. Hell, some officers will upholster during vanilla traffic stops.
Well at least you know what was going through the officer's mind.
I drew my weapon thousands of times having no prior information to indicate someone was armed. It can save a bit of valuable time if it turns out the weapon is needed. I've also hidden behind a lot of things which weren't even close to being cover and (GASP!!) I knew it when I moved into position.
Police work isn't the same as combat. While I'd like for officers to be able to treat it as such we have a significant portion of the population who get their panties in a wad over the type of pants officers wear. The tears would flood the streets if officers actually treated every run like it could be their last.
I'm well aware of how vehicles work (and don't) for cover. There are lot of people on both sides of the law, both dead and alive who can attest to the unpredictability of how vehicles stop bullets. Often times they're better than anything else in the immediate area but as I mentioned upthread, officers cannot hide behind their cars at every situation.
Denny347
Grandmaster
Someone breaking into a car? I'd be unholstered as well. Criminals do unpredictable things when startled during the commission of a crime.
Getting close to the suspect undetected before announcing yourself perhaps?
Yeah, he caught someone breaking into a vehicle...maybe trying to steal it? That's enough for many of us to unholster.
