To mask or not to mask....That is the question. Part II

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  • jsx1043

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    Watching a video discussion on this right now. I'm about halfway through it, YMMV, but think most would want to listen to it. This narrative is unraveling quickly in just the last month, August and September will probably be a big turning point. IMO people are realizing they've been lied to for Govt control and big Pharma financial reasons, and they're not happy.
    This is why there is such a quick push for 100% vaccination, new calls for lockdowns, mask mandates and passports. Their narrative is slipping away as people are becoming more informed and resistant to the BS. They are pushing hard to keep control of the people.
     

    tim87tr

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    This is why there is such a quick push for 100% vaccination, new calls for lockdowns, mask mandates and passports. Their narrative is slipping away as people are becoming more informed and resistant to the BS. They are pushing hard to keep control of the people.

    Yes, definitely. I finished watching the video, very sad at the end, they call it out for what it is. Majority of members here are already knowledgeable about the topics discussed, but it's framed and explained very well by the journalist. One thing I wasn't aware of was the three new treatment drugs not allowed, the latest by Eli Lily, that would eliminate the EUA and "vaccine" use, much like the Hcq and Ivermectin early on.

    IMO the "vaccine" and future planned ones will not survive the remainder of 2021. Massive censorship in a freedom loving armed society is on a short course for some devastating repercussions. Totally imploding narrative and control failure.

    I'm not sure how it'll all play out but am positive it will be chaotic. Do your best to be prepared and I pray nothing bad happens to anyone vaccinated, friends, family and loved ones. I know it weighs heavily on one's mind, it has mine. I feel better now.
     
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    jamil

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    A. Vaccines don't prevent hospitalization? Sacre blu! (Or: no ****, Sherlock.) That expectation is utterly unrealistic. And yet again, you're torturing data and calling it statistics.

    B. Straw man.

    E. Certainly, it would have happened on its own - but that reality doesn't somehow disprove that the vaccines are accelerating that occurrence.

    I personally don't care if you get the vaccine or not; it's your own decision. But I'm not going to sit idly by while people torture statistics to claim that the vaccines are having no impact.
    Then so was their ******** claim that they're 100% effective against serious illness.
     

    foszoe

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    I was surprised to read the following article and find not one thing about wearing masks. I have taken the liberty to write the editor to see how that could have possibly been overlooked.

     

    chipbennett

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    As one who doesn’t know exactly who to believe, coming from the viewpoint to never trust the govt, but also never trust the hype (both sides), I appreciate what you’ve brought to the thread here as a respected member who is willing to share his insight.
    Many people somewhere in the middle will listen to the most reasonable voice, and while I don’t know that I agree with all you say I’m glad you brought it and show that you can believe one thing but still respect others who don’t want the shot.
    We can do better, and we must do our best at this time in this place, for our country, our very way of life.
    I think this is the key. And I think everyone here knows that if I cross that line into disrespect, anyone has an open invitation to call me out on it. We can disagree vehemently, but we can still do it respectfully. And I can do everything in my power to help make Covid treatments and vaccines safe, effective, and widely available - while also fully respecting everyone's right to make their own, personal, medical decisions regarding the vaccines (and opposing, with equal vehemence, government mandates that take away that individual liberty).
     

    chipbennett

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    actaeon277

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    They’re laughing at you. They’re publicly rubbing it in your faces and laughing about it.


    Yup.
    Rules for thee, and not for me.
    Over and Over and OVER.

    When will people call them out on it?
    Not just a few people, like here, but MILLIONS of people. Millions SHOULD be calling them out.
     

    phylodog

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    Yup.
    Rules for thee, and not for me.
    Over and Over and OVER.

    When will people call them out on it?
    Not just a few people, like here, but MILLIONS of people. Millions SHOULD be calling them out.
    Yet they won’t because believing the ********, toeing the line and obeying without question is easy. It doesn’t require thought or effort or uncomfortable truths. It doesn’t pull them away from the truly important things in life like making sure everyone knows how progressive they are, who is winning American Idol or what the Kardshians or Lebrun James are up to today.

    Shallow. Basic. Pathetically meaningless lives.

    ”Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of their fleeting time here.”

    MJK
     

    BugI02

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    Yet they won’t because believing the ********, toeing the line and obeying without question is easy. It doesn’t require thought or effort or uncomfortable truths. It doesn’t pull them away from the truly important things in life like making sure everyone knows how progressive they are, who is winning American Idol or what the Kardshians or Lebrun James are up to today.

    Shallow. Basic. Pathetically meaningless lives.

    ”Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of their fleeting time here.”

    MJK
    I was shocked to find how much worse than I thought things really are

    A little background. Had dinner last night with another couple who are good friends. We normally don't discuss politics because they are pretty much sheep (or at least the wife is and my friend goes along to get along)

    We're sitting outside and the wife is dragging the unvaccinated as the cause of increasing cases and the return of restrictions, and I had to speak up and say that with all the hype about the vaccinated being able to spread the delta variant there was no evidence to support that supposition - that perhaps more of those being hospitalized were unvaccinated but there was no way to tell whether they were exposed by a vaccinated or unvaccinated person. I also mentioned the illegals pouring over the border, with a reported 18% testing positive, who are being processed and then bussed off to cities all over the southwest

    Then the wife, who is jewish but not observant and all about what was done to 'her people', drops a bombshell

    She says "I don't care about my freedoms, I just want to live", referring I guess to the ability to have lunch with your friends is more important than having guaranteed freedoms. She, of course, thinks that everyone should be made to take the vaccine and that somehow that would end the restrictions

    I could only stammer that that was an extraordinary statement and then my wife spoke up to remind us that we don't talk about politics for a reason

    I just could not comprehend the misplaced belief that the authoritarian things the government decides to do will always be something she agrees with, especially coming from a jew

    These people are not stupid, but I had no idea how blind they really are to reality
     

    Jaybird1980

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    I was shocked to find how much worse than I thought things really are

    A little background. Had dinner last night with another couple who are good friends. We normally don't discuss politics because they are pretty much sheep (or at least the wife is and my friend goes along to get along)

    We're sitting outside and the wife is dragging the unvaccinated as the cause of increasing cases and the return of restrictions, and I had to speak up and say that with all the hype about the vaccinated being able to spread the delta variant there was no evidence to support that supposition - that perhaps more of those being hospitalized were unvaccinated but there was no way to tell whether they were exposed by a vaccinated or unvaccinated person. I also mentioned the illegals pouring over the border, with a reported 18% testing positive, who are being processed and then bussed off to cities all over the southwest

    Then the wife, who is jewish but not observant and all about what was done to 'her people', drops a bombshell

    She says "I don't care about my freedoms, I just want to live", referring I guess to the ability to have lunch with your friends is more important than having guaranteed freedoms. She, of course, thinks that everyone should be made to take the vaccine and that somehow that would end the restrictions

    I could only stammer that that was an extraordinary statement and then my wife spoke up to remind us that we don't talk about politics for a reason

    I just could not comprehend the misplaced belief that the authoritarian things the government decides to do will always be something she agrees with, especially coming from a jew

    These people are not stupid, but I had no idea how blind they really are to reality
    I'm left curious as to her age and where her Jewish parents/grandparents (I'm assuming they were Jewish also) are from?
     

    BugI02

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    She is 72, and her parents are from Shaker Heights (a Cleveland suburb), I don't know precisely about the GPs but she has never said they were Holocaust survivors and I believe she would have, if it were so

    My personal opinion is that the whole family are the type of US reform jews who tend to vote reliably Democrat, for reasons unknown
     

    chipbennett

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    Oh, the generosity and the hubris of the Dunning-Kruger.
    Shot: so we're going to jump straight to ad hominem. So be it.
    I assume, dear sir, you have a Ph.D. in a related field? Naturally, you must, since you speak with such authority on the subject, and it cannot come just from your clients working in that field (or your mom being a retired nurse or your cousin once removed an MD).
    Chaser: "Siri, show me what appeal to authority logical fallacy looks like. I know my background, education, and experience. You don't.
    As to the definition of gene therapy, I can only provide the information, but I cannot comprehend it for you.
    The definition in question is this:
    Introducing a new or modified gene into the body to help treat a disease

    Let's have a look if it means what I said it means, shall we?
    1. Introduce
      5 : place, insert
    2. Gene
      Definition of gene
      : a specific sequence of nucleotides in DNA or RNA that is located usually on a chromosome and that is the functional unit of inheritance controlling the transmission and expression of one or more traits by specifying the structure of a particular polypeptide and especially a protein or controlling the function of other genetic material
    3. Body
      : a human being
    Thus, using pertinent dictionary definitions of its constituents, we can construct a more elaborate version of the FDA definition as follows:
    Placing or inserting a new or modified specific sequence of nucleotides in RNA into a human being.

    Which is literally what the injection of any mRNA into the body is.
    You are confusing the fact that mRNA can be used as part of gene therapy (a true statement) with the assertion that any use of mRNA constitutes gene therapy (a false statement), much less that the mRNA Covid vaccine is gene therapy (also a false statement).

    Your dictionary definition of "introduce", "gene", and "body" are irrelevant, and your use of them constitutes yet another logical fallacy: argumentum ad dictonarium. Here is FDA's definition of gene therapy. To wit:

    "Gene therapy is a technique that modifies a person’s genes to treat or cure disease. Gene therapies can work by several mechanisms:
    • Replacing a disease-causing gene with a healthy copy of the gene
    • Inactivating a disease-causing gene that is not functioning properly
    • Introducing a new or modified gene into the body to help treat a disease"
    mRNA is nothing more than a delivery mechanism. It is what get delivered that matters.

    Here are a few examples of scientists who literally develop mRNA gene therapies and vaccines calling them gene therapies:

    Intranasal vaccination with messenger RNA as a new approach in gene therapy: Use against tuberculosis

    Intranasal vaccination for tuberculosis vaccination? In that case, the mRNA is the antigen. The only purpose it serves is to be the antigen. This is not gene therapy. This therapy does not modify the patient's genes.

    How this is different from the mRNA Covid vaccine: the mRNA is not used as an antigen; rather, the mRNA payload is the antigen. The only purpose mRNA serves is to transport the virus protein particle RNA into the cell cytoplasm, so that the cell generates that virus protein particle, thereby inducing an immune response against that antigen.

    mRNA-based Gene Therapy for Glioblastoma? The mRNA is the vehicle to transport synthetic RNA - the actual gene therapy - across the brain-blood barrier. The payload is the gene therapy. The mRNA is simply the delivery mechanism.

    How this is different from the mRNA Covid vaccine: the mRNA payload is not gene therapy. The payload is a virus protein particle. It does not modify the patient's genes in any way. It induces the cell cytoplasm to build a protein structure. No patient genetic material is modified or impacted in any way. No patient gene expression is modified or impacted in any way.

    mRNA-based delivery of corrected mRNA? The mRNA in this case counteracts the cell's own mRNA-based production of cell proteins, or introduces undamaged RNA to the cell cytoplasm in place of the patient's own, damaged RNA. This is gene therapy, as it is intended to modify the patient's gene expression.

    How this is different from the mRNA Covid vaccine: the mRNA payload is not gene therapy. The payload is a virus protein particle. It does not modify the patient's genes in any way. It induces the cell cytoplasm to build a protein structure. No patient genetic material is modified or impacted in any way. No patient gene expression is modified or impacted in any way.

    Scaffold-mediated delivery for non-viral mRNA vaccines

    (this one is literally published in Nature Gene Therapy section)

    This is more of a medical device study related to facilitating the efficacy of mRNA therapies than a study of the mRNA therapy itself. In this case, however, the mRNA payload was DNA, so: yes, here, again, mRNA is used as part of a gene therapy.

    How this is different from the mRNA Covid vaccine: the mRNA payload is not gene therapy. The payload is a virus protein particle. It does not modify the patient's genes in any way. It induces the cell cytoplasm to build a protein structure. No patient genetic material is modified or impacted in any way. No patient gene expression is modified or impacted in any way.

    Shocking, I know.
    In all seriousness, the basis of your opinion on mRNA vaccines is your belief that gene therapy necessitates modification of the human DNA.
    This is patently false.
    Gene therapy means using genetic material to do something in the body, that's it.
    Nope. The Agency's definition of gene therapy is dependent upon the payload, not the vector.

    The Covid mRNA vaccine does none of these things:
    • Modify the patient's genes
    • Replace a disease-producing gene with a healthy copy of that (same) gene
    • Inactivate a disease-causing gene
    • Introduce a new/modified gene into the body to fight disease

    The Covid mRNA vaccine doesn't introduce (the payload) a gene; rather, it introduces an antigen (a protein spike, which is not genetic material) that induces an immune system response.

    And if you want to just point out that someone is wrong based on nothing more than your opinions and beliefs -- well, that just speaks volumes about your scientific acumen.
    You still have no basis for asserting that anything that I have said is based merely on nothing more than my opinions and beliefs. Given the assumptions you're implying here, I have little reason to care what your view of my scientific acumen is.
     

    actaeon277

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    I was shocked to find how much worse than I thought things really are

    A little background. Had dinner last night with another couple who are good friends. We normally don't discuss politics because they are pretty much sheep (or at least the wife is and my friend goes along to get along)

    We're sitting outside and the wife is dragging the unvaccinated as the cause of increasing cases and the return of restrictions, and I had to speak up and say that with all the hype about the vaccinated being able to spread the delta variant there was no evidence to support that supposition - that perhaps more of those being hospitalized were unvaccinated but there was no way to tell whether they were exposed by a vaccinated or unvaccinated person. I also mentioned the illegals pouring over the border, with a reported 18% testing positive, who are being processed and then bussed off to cities all over the southwest

    Then the wife, who is jewish but not observant and all about what was done to 'her people', drops a bombshell

    She says "I don't care about my freedoms, I just want to live", referring I guess to the ability to have lunch with your friends is more important than having guaranteed freedoms. She, of course, thinks that everyone should be made to take the vaccine and that somehow that would end the restrictions

    I could only stammer that that was an extraordinary statement and then my wife spoke up to remind us that we don't talk about politics for a reason

    I just could not comprehend the misplaced belief that the authoritarian things the government decides to do will always be something she agrees with, especially coming from a jew

    These people are not stupid, but I had no idea how blind they really are to reality
    Just comply and the restrictions will go away.
    Just like the "2 week" thing.
     

    jamil

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    I was shocked to find how much worse than I thought things really are

    A little background. Had dinner last night with another couple who are good friends. We normally don't discuss politics because they are pretty much sheep (or at least the wife is and my friend goes along to get along)

    We're sitting outside and the wife is dragging the unvaccinated as the cause of increasing cases and the return of restrictions, and I had to speak up and say that with all the hype about the vaccinated being able to spread the delta variant there was no evidence to support that supposition - that perhaps more of those being hospitalized were unvaccinated but there was no way to tell whether they were exposed by a vaccinated or unvaccinated person. I also mentioned the illegals pouring over the border, with a reported 18% testing positive, who are being processed and then bussed off to cities all over the southwest

    Then the wife, who is jewish but not observant and all about what was done to 'her people', drops a bombshell

    She says "I don't care about my freedoms, I just want to live", referring I guess to the ability to have lunch with your friends is more important than having guaranteed freedoms. She, of course, thinks that everyone should be made to take the vaccine and that somehow that would end the restrictions

    I could only stammer that that was an extraordinary statement and then my wife spoke up to remind us that we don't talk about politics for a reason

    I just could not comprehend the misplaced belief that the authoritarian things the government decides to do will always be something she agrees with, especially coming from a jew

    These people are not stupid, but I had no idea how blind they really are to reality
    I see you have met my sister-in-law. :):
     
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