Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

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    Wolfhound

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    Damn, I missed out on that. Must have been before I had my 50 posts on INGO.
    I think it was mostly in the 1990’s and 2000’s. They went to the following countries….
    Sweden
    Poland
    Greece
    Spain
    Finland
    Turkey
    Singapore
    Indonesia
    Qatar

    I am sure you could have picked up a couple at a gunshow. :):

     

    bobzilla

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    Here is a quick synopsis. I'll throw in the link.

    Total Russian losses (so far):

    Armoured Personnel Carriers (APC's) = 6,307 Lost
    Troops Dead (not casualties) = 123,080
    Tanks = 3,161 Lost
    Artillery Systems = 2,154 Lost
    Aircraft shot down = 290
    Drones = 1,902

    Link: https://euroweeklynews.com/2023/01/25/ukraine-russian-losses-january-25/

    This doesn't factor in the lack of decent maintenance the Russian equipment must be suffering from.

    I wonder what their reserves are looking like?

    Regards,

    Doug
    Ah yes, all that "advanced Russian military hardware". They lost more tanks in a single day than the US lost in 10 years of active combat. Let that sink in for a minute.

    Also keep in mind that at 123k KIA, that is almost 30k more than we lost in Korea and Vietnam combined (~94k). Even if that number is inflated by double, at 66k that is literally 10 times as many soldiers lost in a single year of fighting than the US has lost since 1991. Two gulf wars, 20 years of fighting in afghanistan and "rebuilding" Iraq for 10 years.

    The US lost a total of 220 tanks in the Korean war. That lasted 3 years. There have been a total of 23 M1/M1A1 tanks lost since they entered service since 1980. 43 years. 21 of those had NO KIA's. The last 2 were intentionally destroyed by the army to prevent capture.
     

    BigMoose

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    If you count the storage lots.. Russia has tens of thousands of tanks.

    I suspect the tanks they have number, is the number active from the start of the war.

    The lost may be also correct, but includes a lot of stuff pulled off storage lots. Which includes, tanks diverted from Export (T-90S). Good stuff from storage lots (T-80, T-72), garbage from storage lots (T-62Ms)
     

    BigMoose

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    Okay this is a rough prewar estimate. And this doesn't include stuff diverted from export, and prototypes from old programs that were diverted to the battlefield.

    Prewar Russian tank numbers
    T-14 (less then a 100, none have seen combat)
    T-90 series 350 active, 67 stored. (plus the unknown amount of T-90S diverted from an export order), also Plus an unknown amount built since start of war.
    T-80 series 480 in service, 3000 in storage
    T-72 series 2030 in service, some 7000 in storage.
    T-62M/T-64 (these are listed together, despite them being very different tanks) 2000 total, all stored at begining of war.
    T-34 30 for Parade duty..
    SU-100 maybe about the same for parade duty.
     
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    BigMoose

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    Ah yes, all that "advanced Russian military hardware". They lost more tanks in a single day than the US lost in 10 years of active combat. Let that sink in for a minute.

    Also keep in mind that at 123k KIA, that is almost 30k more than we lost in Korea and Vietnam combined (~94k). Even if that number is inflated by double, at 66k that is literally 10 times as many soldiers lost in a single year of fighting than the US has lost since 1991. Two gulf wars, 20 years of fighting in afghanistan and "rebuilding" Iraq for 10 years.

    The US lost a total of 220 tanks in the Korean war. That lasted 3 years. There have been a total of 23 M1/M1A1 tanks lost since they entered service since 1980. 43 years. 21 of those had NO KIA's. The last 2 were intentionally destroyed by the army to prevent capture.
    It is a difference in the way the west, and the east fight wars.

    We value our guys.... the Russians? "Here is AK, now go that way and shoot pointy things at the enemy, and make sacrifice for Russia."

    Good ole fashioned trading blood by the train load for a few meters a week..
    "Ukranians will wear out eventually, keep sending people"
     

    actaeon277

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    Unfortunately the Germans (in all their wisdom) sold off the vast majority of their Leopard 2 tanks at fire sale prices.
    Because politicians always want to tell us how war and violence is updated, so they can funnel that money into vote buying social programs.
    And then get that look on there face when violence breaks out
     

    bobzilla

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    It is a difference in the way the west, and the east fight wars.

    We value our guys.... the Russians? "Here is AK, now go that way and shoot pointy things at the enemy, and make sacrifice for Russia."

    Good ole fashioned trading blood by the train load for a few meters a week..
    "Ukranians will wear out eventually, keep sending people"
    It worked for them in the great patriotic war, but their enemy was fighing a war on 2 fronts while having their cities and infrastructure bombed into oblivion. If Germany had only the soviet front to tackle, I'm not sure the soviets could have pushed them out.
     

    smokingman

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    Leadeye

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    Be interesting to see how much more effective they could make an old Russian tank by adding modern reactive armor and old bar armor to improve defensive capability and then upgrade optics and fire control. The motor and drive train are probably still good.

    I remember reading an article in the 70s about how cramped the soviet tanks were, maybe they are running out of short people.;)
     

    Libertarian01

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    Be interesting to see how much more effective they could make an old Russian tank by adding modern reactive armor and old bar armor to improve defensive capability and then upgrade optics and fire control. The motor and drive train are probably still good.

    I remember reading an article in the 70s about how cramped the soviet tanks were, maybe they are running out of short people.;)

    They're Russian. They'll amputate as necessary...
     

    bobzilla

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    Be interesting to see how much more effective they could make an old Russian tank by adding modern reactive armor and old bar armor to improve defensive capability and then upgrade optics and fire control. The motor and drive train are probably still good.

    I remember reading an article in the 70s about how cramped the soviet tanks were, maybe they are running out of short people.;)
    Their main problem is the auto loader they use for the main gun stores the ammo in the turret. One shot in a decent enough place cooks off those main gun rounds and we have a turret tossing competition. It’s one of the reasons I laugh when people talk about superior Russian equipment.
     

    snapping turtle

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    USA strategy is to bleed Russia dry. Send enough weapons to keep things churning and the conflict in Ukrainian space. Test weapons and tactics in real time without American casualties at this moment. See how Russia reacts to this And that. hopefully not burn though all stockpiles of old munitions before Russia runs out of their stockpile of old munitions.

    Ukrainian strategy is to survive the onslaught and outlast the advance. This to me is more an east verses west battle than the press releases would or will state. Poland has claims in Ukrainian land in the past and seems like they think of the area as valuable in Ukrainian hands or polish hands. Norway/finland have a distrust of Russia as they have been invaded in the past. This could be a second front in the future but that would require some further escalation in that sphere of influence.

    Russian strategy is to gain valuable resources and population while making a semi communist socials states like they had pre 1990. In the process if they can weaken or kill the petro dollar they bleed out USA influence worldwide. Ukrainian has very valuable resources and farm land which they are attempting to control. Russia in history does not do well at the start of a war. They gain traction as time goes on. Russia has some friends showing some support as they can in Iran North Korea and Syria. Some fence jumping support in Saudi Arabia and turkey. Belarus has an army of like 10 k active soldiers so other than logistic base I see no real threat in their for es

    If Russia wins. The war will spill over into the Baltic states. Bric’s states increase influence financially. India China and Russia massed into at basic area together should partner up or could conflict up. Russia Into Poland and it most likely means WW3. ( maybe nukes)

    if Ukrainian forces win Russia faces an extensive amount of internal conflict and external conflict thus is likely to use whatever means at it disposal to silence that conflict. Thus maybe nukes.

    Best outcome would be some type of peace talks splitting Ukrainian up but neither side seems to want that outcome. Second best is that the meat grinder of a war continues grinding meat and armaments until both sides are spent and a WW1 trench style war takes hold.

    I still feel that other conflicts will take hold. Arminian conflict. Israel/Syria Israel/Iran Iran/Iraq Pakistan/ India ( a simmering powderkeg) African internal conflicts maybe an Asian conflict in Korea or south China seas. I do not see a Chinese invasion of Taiwan as China does not have enough ships. Taiwan needs anti Ship capabilities and if they quit buying tanks they can stop things themselves.

    rambled on but 2 cents and a nickel. Been reading much commentary little
     

    Wolfhound

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    He must have had 50 posts when the firesale happened,and lucked out.
    Side note. I would not want to be that man. If he does not understand how much danger he is in someone should tell him.
    I agree he could be in some danger. I hope they are guarding that warehouse.

    Besides Leopards I saw a Gepard AA and at least one AMX-13.
     

    smokingman

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    USA strategy is to bleed Russia dry. Send enough weapons to keep things churning and the conflict in Ukrainian space. Test weapons and tactics in real time without American casualties at this moment. See how Russia reacts to this And that. hopefully not burn though all stockpiles of old munitions before Russia runs out of their stockpile of old munitions.

    Ukrainian strategy is to survive the onslaught and outlast the advance. This to me is more an east verses west battle than the press releases would or will state. Poland has claims in Ukrainian land in the past and seems like they think of the area as valuable in Ukrainian hands or polish hands. Norway/finland have a distrust of Russia as they have been invaded in the past. This could be a second front in the future but that would require some further escalation in that sphere of influence.

    Russian strategy is to gain valuable resources and population while making a semi communist socials states like they had pre 1990. In the process if they can weaken or kill the petro dollar they bleed out USA influence worldwide. Ukrainian has very valuable resources and farm land which they are attempting to control. Russia in history does not do well at the start of a war. They gain traction as time goes on. Russia has some friends showing some support as they can in Iran North Korea and Syria. Some fence jumping support in Saudi Arabia and turkey. Belarus has an army of like 10 k active soldiers so other than logistic base I see no real threat in their for es

    If Russia wins. The war will spill over into the Baltic states. Bric’s states increase influence financially. India China and Russia massed into at basic area together should partner up or could conflict up. Russia Into Poland and it most likely means WW3. ( maybe nukes)

    if Ukrainian forces win Russia faces an extensive amount of internal conflict and external conflict thus is likely to use whatever means at it disposal to silence that conflict. Thus maybe nukes.

    Best outcome would be some type of peace talks splitting Ukrainian up but neither side seems to want that outcome. Second best is that the meat grinder of a war continues grinding meat and armaments until both sides are spent and a WW1 trench style war takes hold.

    I still feel that other conflicts will take hold. Arminian conflict. Israel/Syria Israel/Iran Iran/Iraq Pakistan/ India ( a simmering powderkeg) African internal conflicts maybe an Asian conflict in Korea or south China seas. I do not see a Chinese invasion of Taiwan as China does not have enough ships. Taiwan needs anti Ship capabilities and if they quit buying tanks they can stop things themselves.

    rambled on but 2 cents and a nickel. Been reading much commentary little
    You missed a few countries. China currently has a little over 9k "Volunteers" in Ukraine(all required to speak Russian and have to be formerly in the Chinese military) and has provided "humanitarian aid" and over 190 billion(USD terms)in trade in 2022.

    Brazil before the last election was sending aid to DPR(since 2015),and is one of the few nation states to recognize them(no longer the case since the election).

    Last year Saudi Arabia made a mutual defense pact with Russia.

    South Africa is 100% on Russia's side(less we forget their defense ministers visit to Russia,and Presidents visit last year with the promise of supporting Russian territorial integrity).

    India has had ties with Russia for a very long time. It counts on Russia for help at the UN against Pakistan. Which it has done for more than 40 years. Their military depends on Russia,and has for a very long time.
     
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    actaeon277

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    Be interesting to see how much more effective they could make an old Russian tank by adding modern reactive armor and old bar armor to improve defensive capability and then upgrade optics and fire control. The motor and drive train are probably still good.

    I remember reading an article in the 70s about how cramped the soviet tanks were, maybe they are running out of short people.;)
    Have you been in any American armor from that time.
    Pretty cramped.
     

    smokingman

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    Since 2015 China has purchased over half of all USA private military schools. Currently around 10% of the students in these schools are from China.

    I am sure most of you know about official US military academies becoming WOKE(ala westpoint),a big part of this was started at those private schools.

    They are playing a very long game(much like us with Taiwan,be we have 1/1000 the scale they are using).

    This while we focus resources on Ukraine. It is still happening every day,in our own country we are being undermined.

     
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