"My 5 Shot Snubby is Good Enough"

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  • BehindBlueI's

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    Not really a 200gr Gold Dot out of a Ruger Alaskan 44mag through 4 layers cloth only penetrated ballistic gel 15.5"

    .44 magnum is significantly less powerful than .454 Casull. I'm sure you could download it significantly if you handload, but good luck finding factory ammo that won't punch through two people at a time.
     

    DadSmith

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    .44 magnum is significantly less powerful than .454 Casull. I'm sure you could download it significantly if you handload, but good luck finding factory ammo that won't punch through two people at a time.
    I was thinking of the big bore diameter nothing more. If I want penetration I'd go with a heavy for caliber hard cast flat nose.
     
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    OurDee

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    .44 magnum is significantly less powerful than .454 Casull. I'm sure you could download it significantly if you handload, but good luck finding factory ammo that won't punch through two people at a time.
    Over penetration is always a concern with the Casull. That glass at the gas station won't stop it. It will shut off a car. For that reason there is a 9mm in my pocket when it is in the shoulder rig. I don't carry it as the only choice.

    I've been in situations and most times the perps showed up in twos and threes. If you think there is only one, you better take a look. I had a 350 pound guy on meds with a tire iron confront me in a corner once. I would not trust a short 9mm to eliminate the threat. The responding officers understood my concern. I didn't call them.
     

    snowwalker

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    As you aren't remotely concerned about over penetration.


    How much time do you think it will take you to get through 5 rounds? How long do you think it takes for bad guy #2 or #3 to react and start putting rounds on you? You know why you see so few dead people with empty guns in their hands regardless of capacity? They ran out of time before they ran out of ammunition. I've yet to see someone win against 3 dedicated bad guys with guns who stayed and fought. I'm sure somebody out there has done it through luck and sheer not sucking, but a group that's smart enough to bring 3 or more and dedicated enough to stay in the fight is also smart enough to surround you, or confront you with a hidden overwatch, etc.

    None of those have been random crime in the truest sense, although some have been occupational hazard crime. Delivery drivers, store clerks, that sort of thing. Multiple dedicated attackers is largely the realm of criminal on criminal or family feud domestics. People who don't care if they die to take you down and have buddies who feel the same.



    I know Mas. He carries a S&W j-frame in his pocket frequently and has for years. Honestly, if you think he doesn't appreciate the role the j-frame fills I'd recommend you become a bit more familiar with his work, such as:


    Skip to 21:00 if you just want to get to the meat of j-frames and Mas' take on their role.
    Let me start with your first two paragraphs.

    Are the odds on my side with 2 or 3 perpetrators? Absolutely not if they all have guns, if they have ball bats then absolutely I do. Are they goods shots? NO! So I still have a chance, and if I have a just little snubby that chance greatly diminishes. I want the best chance to live period.

    Now on to Mas. Thank you for the link and I listened to the full broadcast, over one hour. What we have been discussing in this thread is our primary carry gun, our edc. Mr Ayoob does not carry a j-frame as an edc and on the broadcast the j-frame only fills a niche and they used that term.

    In Massad Ayoob "10 commandments of concealed carry" number 1 is "Always Carry As Much As Possible".

    This is our life we are talking about! Why try to talk yourself in doing the least amount possible to potentially save it. This is close to sounding like a liberal in that you only need 7 rounds or 10 rounds and I do not say that as an insult to anyone, only as an irony.

    My best to all.
     

    bobzilla

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    Brownswhitanon.
    Let me start with your first two paragraphs.

    Are the odds on my side with 2 or 3 perpetrators? Absolutely not if they all have guns, if they have ball bats then absolutely I do. Are they goods shots? NO! So I still have a chance, and if I have a just little snubby that chance greatly diminishes. I want the best chance to live period.

    Now on to Mas. Thank you for the link and I listened to the full broadcast, over one hour. What we have been discussing in this thread is our primary carry gun, our edc. Mr Ayoob does not carry a j-frame as an edc and on the broadcast the j-frame only fills a niche and they used that term.

    In Massad Ayoob "10 commandments of concealed carry" number 1 is "Always Carry As Much As Possible".

    This is our life we are talking about! Why try to talk yourself in doing the least amount possible to potentially save it. This is close to sounding like a liberal in that you only need 7 rounds or 10 rounds and I do not say that as an insult to anyone, only as an irony.

    My best to all.
    So don’t carry at all if you’re not going to carry 80 rounds? That’s what most of us are fighting here. I’d rather the person that is familiar and comfortable with a stubby carried it than not. Letting yourself get into the bad position of confronting multiple attackers is more on your lack of awareness and putting yourself into situations that you shouldn’t have been to start with.

    I don’t carry my Rossi m88. But if that was all I had I would and I would suggest that someone that has only that as an option invest in training and their awareness to avoid as much as possible. Then again i suggest that for someone carrying a wonder-9 and 33 rd mags. Your brain and being in the right place is what will keep you alive more than any talisman or equipment.

    Carry what you want. Be good with it and be safe. I don’t suggest being in bars after 10 or gas stations at 3am browsing around.
     

    cedartop

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    So don’t carry at all if you’re not going to carry 80 rounds? That’s what most of us are fighting here. I’d rather the person that is familiar and comfortable with a stubby carried it than not. Letting yourself get into the bad position of confronting multiple attackers is more on your lack of awareness and putting yourself into situations that you shouldn’t have been to start with.

    I don’t carry my Rossi m88. But if that was all I had I would and I would suggest that someone that has only that as an option invest in training and their awareness to avoid as much as possible. Then again i suggest that for someone carrying a wonder-9 and 33 rd mags. Your brain and being in the right place is what will keep you alive more than any talisman or equipment.

    Carry what you want. Be good with it and be safe. I don’t suggest being in bars after 10 or gas stations at 3am browsing around.
    I am not sure where the 80 rounds came from. Much like you I say people can carry what they want. It is not anyone else's place to decide for them. Just don't be deluded into thinking a 5 shot snubby is the same as a full size service pistol. It is not. The snubby is a get them off me gun. And that is fine if that is what you are looking for and you realize the limitations. The limitations are even greater if you suck. I have probably told this story before but we have an NRA instructor at our club that carries an .22 NAA of some sort in his pocket. Now chances are he is going to die of a heart attack or stroke first because of his abysmal physical condition, but if he ever needs a gun to defend himself he is practically unarmed with his choice. Not that at .22 can't be made to work, but combine his particular model with pocket carry and his poor skills and you have nothing more than a talisman. Do you get the feeling nobody is going to change anybody's mind here?
     

    wtburnette

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    I am not sure where the 80 rounds came from. Much like you I say people can carry what they want. It is not anyone else's place to decide for them. Just don't be deluded into thinking a 5 shot snubby is the same as a full size service pistol. It is not. The snubby is a get them off me gun. And that is fine if that is what you are looking for and you realize the limitations. The limitations are even greater if you suck. I have probably told this story before but we have an NRA instructor at our club that carries an .22 NAA of some sort in his pocket. Now chances are he is going to die of a heart attack or stroke first because of his abysmal physical condition, but if he ever needs a gun to defend himself he is practically unarmed with his choice. Not that at .22 can't be made to work, but combine his particular model with pocket carry and his poor skills and you have nothing more than a talisman. Do you get the feeling nobody is going to change anybody's mind here?

    There are plenty of examples even here on INGO of people who carry a gun as a talisman. Just look in the classifieds from time to time and see how many guns are being sold with the phrase "carried but never fired". I would never carry a gun that I've never taken to the range and verified it's reliable with several types of ammo, especially whatever SD ammo I carry. IMO if you don't know if you can count on a gun, you have no business carrying it. Even if you have experience with the same model gun, the particular gun in question could function differently. Always amazes me. Same with people who never train.

    I think the 80 round comment was just an exaggerated example. To me it means, you can't really carry to cover every possible scenario. If you were in a border town and a cartel decided to come over en mass to take over the town or something, even someone with a full sized gun with two full sized spare mags would be under-gunned. I carry for what I think is statistically most likely. I mean, statistically the majority of us will never have a self defense incident that involves a firearm. Going beyond that, like BBI has shown with his statics, most civilian SD incidents are under 3 rounds shot I believe. Now, I personally feel safer carrying a minimum of 10+1 rounds plus a spare mag, but the spare mag is more for mag malfunction reasons than capacity. I have, on rare occasions, carried a 6+1 round LCP II when I had to deep conceal and felt like it was completely better than not having a gun at all.

    Bottom line is that everyone has to figure out what they're comfortable carrying and carry that. Preferably with some training as well... ;)
     

    Trapper Jim

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    I am not sure where the 80 rounds came from. Much like you I say people can carry what they want. It is not anyone else's place to decide for them. Just don't be deluded into thinking a 5 shot snubby is the same as a full size service pistol. It is not. The snubby is a get them off me gun. And that is fine if that is what you are looking for and you realize the limitations. The limitations are even greater if you suck. I have probably told this story before but we have an NRA instructor at our club that carries an .22 NAA of some sort in his pocket. Now chances are he is going to die of a heart attack or stroke first because of his abysmal physical condition, but if he ever needs a gun to defend himself he is practically unarmed with his choice. Not that at .22 can't be made to work, but combine his particular model with pocket carry and his poor skills and you have nothing more than a talisman. Do you get the feeling nobody is going to change anybody's mind here?
    The snub was designed as a belly gun so many let it rest right there. I believe the “they are not very accurate” label comes from a comfortable easy way to not put in the time to build a skill set.

    If one carry’s the gun, then carry the responsibility to know how to use it beyond what some rag writer or keyboard commando tells you.

    We practice at 20 to 25 yards with our JFrames all the time. Muzzle targets don’t take much of a skill set.
     

    bobzilla

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    Brownswhitanon.
    There are plenty of examples even here on INGO of people who carry a gun as a talisman. Just look in the classifieds from time to time and see how many guns are being sold with the phrase "carried but never fired". I would never carry a gun that I've never taken to the range and verified it's reliable with several types of ammo, especially whatever SD ammo I carry. IMO if you don't know if you can count on a gun, you have no business carrying it. Even if you have experience with the same model gun, the particular gun in question could function differently. Always amazes me. Same with people who never train.

    I think the 80 round comment was just an exaggerated example. To me it means, you can't really carry to cover every possible scenario. If you were in a border town and a cartel decided to come over en mass to take over the town or something, even someone with a full sized gun with two full sized spare mags would be under-gunned. I carry for what I think is statistically most likely. I mean, statistically the majority of us will never have a self defense incident that involves a firearm. Going beyond that, like BBI has shown with his statics, most civilian SD incidents are under 3 rounds shot I believe. Now, I personally feel safer carrying a minimum of 10+1 rounds plus a spare mag, but the spare mag is more for mag malfunction reasons than capacity. I have, on rare occasions, carried a 6+1 round LCP II when I had to deep conceal and felt like it was completely better than not having a gun at all.

    Bottom line is that everyone has to figure out what they're comfortable carrying and carry that. Preferably with some training as well... ;)
    All of this. My personal choice is a compact 1911 with 7+1 and a spare 8+1 mag. Again, not for the needed ammo but for malfunction/**** ups. I much prefer to not put myself into a location or time its needed and if a place "feels" wrong, trust my gut and move on.
     

    BE Mike

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    I think that over-penetration is much less of a concern for carry type handguns, than misses. With an obvious crazed or drugged attacker, after a couple of good hits and he's still coming, I'll motivate outta there if I'm able. If the attacker runs after me, it just lessens his chances of pressing the attack. To each his own, but I do think that having more ammo available (to a point) in my carry gun is a good thing. I started out carrying a S&W 642, then a Kahr CM9 (6+1) and now a Sig P365 (10+1). If the odds are in my favor, I'll never have to shoot it to defend myself or others. I hope that is the case, but I don't gamble with anything that important.
     

    Combat Engineer

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    I've never found a compact or small handgun I liked using.Going against the grain as usual I'll only carry full size.When it's the 10mm 48 rounds.When it's my 44 magnum 30.
     

    BugI02

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    So everyone should open carry an M4 carbine, is that it?

    2d42e022aa4543c159b5bd0507b8e18e.jpg
    Naw. AK or SCAR would be a better choice

    And there is already a debate thread about whether open carry just makes you the first target
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Let me start with your first two paragraphs.

    Are the odds on my side with 2 or 3 perpetrators? Absolutely not if they all have guns, if they have ball bats then absolutely I do. Are they goods shots? NO! So I still have a chance, and if I have a just little snubby that chance greatly diminishes. I want the best chance to live period.

    Now on to Mas. Thank you for the link and I listened to the full broadcast, over one hour. What we have been discussing in this thread is our primary carry gun, our edc. Mr Ayoob does not carry a j-frame as an edc and on the broadcast the j-frame only fills a niche and they used that term.

    In Massad Ayoob "10 commandments of concealed carry" number 1 is "Always Carry As Much As Possible".

    This is our life we are talking about! Why try to talk yourself in doing the least amount possible to potentially save it. This is close to sounding like a liberal in that you only need 7 rounds or 10 rounds and I do not say that as an insult to anyone, only as an irony.

    My best to all.

    I'm thinking you jumped in mid-thread and haven't read what I posted earlier. I won't rehash that, but you seem to be arguing against things you imagine I think vs what I've already plainly laid out earlier.

    As far as the liberal thing, I fit my theory to the facts, not the other way around. After being exposed to a metric **** ton of self-defense shootings, defense of others shootings, etc. I'm comfortable with my understanding of the facts and won't exaggerate the threats or dangers to score political points. I'll leave that to the media and politicians. Need is irrelevant, I'm not advocating for some rule on what you carry or how much of it. I've simply responded to the OP's original statement of:

    "

    "My 5 Shot Snubby is Good Enough"​

    Yeah...no.
     
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