IS THERE VALUE IN COMPETITIVE SHOOTING?

[cedartop]

The simple answer to the question is, of course there is value in it. For a whole bunch of reasons. It is not tactical training, but it has a lot of benefits besides just being fun.

 

[Latewatch]

"Competition shooting will get you killed in a real fight"......

Seriously, with just short of 40 years in Military and LE experience and almost as much time as a competitive shooter I can say without hesitation that competitive shooting is absolutely a benefit to anyone that finds themself on the two-way range.

 

[Brad69]

The truth has been spoken!

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I don't know guys. Competition can be really bad for a person's self image.

 

[Trapper Jim]

For the many reason of gun ownership, Competition trumps them all as it demands the commitment, perseverance, diligence, humility, education and practice of developing a better skill set. It separates the casual gun owner from a shootist. To do it right, you learn gunsmithing, handloading, equipment fails and etc. Competition forces you to get in the practice and trigger time that is far more valuable than taking a "class" and returning your piece to the sock drawer. Above all, it tests your accountability to master the craft. No other reason for owning a gun (Hunting, Military or Police, (with exception of those M&P that work at it past normal requirements) Merchant, Collecting, or Protection measures or improves your ongoing skillset better than competing. EOS.

 

[Bosshoss]

For the many reason of gun ownership, Competition trumps them all as it demands the commitment, perseverance, diligence, humility, education and practice of developing a better skill set. It separates the casual gun owner from a shootist. To do it right, you learn gunsmithing, handloading, equipment fails and etc. Competition forces you to get in the practice and trigger time that is far more valuable than taking a "class" and returning your piece to the sock drawer. Above all, it tests your accountability to master the craft. No other reason for owning a gun (Hunting, Military or Police, (with exception of those M&P that work at it past normal requirements) Merchant, Collecting, or Protection measures or improves your ongoing skillset better than competing. EOS.

Well said Jim.

 

[Tanfodude]

Yes, handling firearm with adrenalin becomes 2nd nature.

 

[Gabriel]

The simple answer to the question is, of course there is value in it. For a whole bunch of reasons. It is not tactical training, but it has a lot of benefits besides just being fun.

Basically this. Anything that gives you trigger time and adds a bit of pressure can be beneficial.

The flip side is the vast majority of shooting competitions I have seen throw tactics out the window, including (surprisingly) most LE SWAT competitions like mentioned in another thread.

 

[BoltThrower]

The question itself is somewhat preposterous. Get a notebook and take copious notes after each event, highlight where you fell behind or failed, and drill those mechanics down in your training at home and non-comp range time. Your skill level at actual shooting will improve quickly, especially if you put daily time into it.

The argument has been made that competitions don't portray tactics/awareness for real situations. And maybe that's true(though there are a few competitions that do, parabellum's low light shoot for example). But nothing teaches the basic handling of the gun like trying to win an IDPA or USPSA over the course of a few years.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't think the argument has ever been if competition increases your gun handling skills or not. The argument normally boils down to you do unrealistic things in competition compared to real world shooting and you will subconciously then do those things under the stress of a real event or that competition-specific equipment doesn't readily translate to real world carry gear. Neither of those things is much of a hurdle to overcome, IMO. If you go for a draw when someone has a gun pointed at you like you'd go from a surrender position in response to a beep, you're probably going to get shot. That doesn't mean competition will get you killed, it means:

The biggest "danger" is to believe competition is all there is to being prepared, that technical ability with the gun is what decides the winners and losers of gunfights. It doesn't. It is one component, but it is not the entirety, and in most cases not even the biggest component.

Technical ability approaches diminishing returns much earlier than many realize or want to admit. Chasing tenths of a second, getting a blazing fast draw, working speed reloads, etc. are all things that will move you up the ranks in competition but really aren't what's going to make a difference if someone tries to rob you at gunpoint. A solid level of competency when combined with a solid MUC game and knowledge of pre-attack indicators, a confidence in one's understanding of legal rights and "trip wires" so as to avoid hesitation, etc. are all going to matter more than someone's reload speed or a 1.3 second draw vs a 1.1 second draw.

 

[Twangbanger]

I don't think the argument has ever been if competition increases your gun handling skills or not. The argument normally boils down to you do unrealistic things in competition compared to real world shooting and you will subconciously then do those things under the stress of a real event or that competition-specific equipment doesn't readily translate to real world carry gear. Neither of those things is much of a hurdle to overcome, IMO. If you go for a draw when someone has a gun pointed at you like you'd go from a surrender position in response to a beep, you're probably going to get shot. That doesn't mean competition will get you killed, it means:

The biggest "danger" is to believe competition is all there is to being prepared, that technical ability with the gun is what decides the winners and losers of gunfights. It doesn't. It is one component, but it is not the entirety, and in most cases not even the biggest component.

Technical ability approaches diminishing returns much earlier than many realize or want to admit. Chasing tenths of a second, getting a blazing fast draw, working speed reloads, etc. are all things that will move you up the ranks in competition but really aren't what's going to make a difference if someone tries to rob you at gunpoint. A solid level of competency when combined with a solid MUC game and knowledge of pre-attack indicators, a confidence in one's understanding of legal rights and "trip wires" so as to avoid hesitation, etc. are all going to matter more than someone's reload speed or a 1.3 second draw vs a 1.1 second draw.

But that kind-of misstates the argument, too, and "getting robbed at gunpoint" isn't the only practical scenario in life. Nobody in the thread is saying progress to Master Class. The message is, "get out there and test yourself, even if you suck."

The people who cannot be bothered to even set foot in a place where they can develop weapon proficiency in tested conditions, probably aren't going to develop those other skills you list, either.

Are there gamey competitors who are unprepared for the street? Yeah, probably. Are there people who have no match experience and survive? Probably every day. Is simply having a gun and being observant and lucky good enough?

...If I don't get the beer vax but wash my hands, will I still be alive next year?

Often and probably. But it's not the point.

The discussion centers around the people who won't start the journey, or even realize there is one. That is your "tall pareto bar."

 

[Trapper Jim]

It’s when we compare range skills to street skills that causes the riff. I think of it this way. Gunfight Street Survival could mean you need both when and how to shoot. Competition will help you with the How.

at every match I go to, including tonight, there will be competitors that will have equipment fails, marksmanship fails, can’t find the dot fails, too dark to see sights fails so on and so forth. If we are brave enough to test the course, then we can be smart enough to learn from it on the stage rather than on the street.

 

[Leo]

I am kind of testifying about what Blue eyes and others said.

Another angle is understanding the impact that the hit will have on something living. We have all seen the videos where a LEO empties a 9mm Glock into a Meth head and the guy hardly staggers. Many of us have hunted and we know what a top of the line slug does to a deer when it is well placed. When I switched to handgun hunting, things were different.

I had to dispatch a large rabid dog and I used my 1911 with hardball ammo. No buck fever, a well aimed shot landed right in the middle of his skull. Even though he was obviously hurt, he was not down. It took a second shot to drop the crazed animal. Examining the carcass showed both bullet holes were well placed, and either one would have been fatal. I was surprised it was not immediate. A lot can happen in 30 seconds on the street. That was a learning experience that affects my reasonable expectations. That is different from club competition. You cannot let your guard down after a single shot, even if you are confident of the hit.

I shot some action Pistol at North Porter. ALL of my skills were marginal as I had just started, I normally shot bowling pins back then.. There were some very good game shooters there. There were also some LEO's. They did well, but their times were a little slower and not from lack of skill. They took more time behind cover, evaluating the situation, scanning for any missed bad guys, etc, before they ran to the next station. They were smart enough not to train to get shot. They were also using duty guns from regular holsters, not race guns from speed holsters. That is a different way than a game shooter trying to shave 10th's from a score.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

But that kind-of misstates the argument, too, and "getting robbed at gunpoint" isn't the only practical scenario in life. Nobody in the thread is saying progress to Master Class. The message is, "get out there and test yourself, even if you suck."

You quoted me, but you don't seem to be responding to what I wrote. I think you've largely invented an argument, assigned it to me, then argued against it.

 

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

The only competitive shooting I do is the woods walk in Friendship. I've recently started the switch to flintlock, and let me tell you. It'll keep you on your toes. Trying to run 15 to 18 targets in a row without any kind of malfunction or operator induced error is really challenging. At least it is to me. Fuhgeddabout score. I suck, and I know it. But I learn something, and get a little bit better every time. That, and the camaraderie with the crazy old characters I run with keep me coming back.

 

[Twangbanger]

You quoted me, but you don't seem to be responding to what I wrote. I think you've largely invented an argument, assigned it to me, then argued against it.

You seem to have taken offense, but none is intended. I double-read your post, and what you're basically saying is it doesn't take being a "9" or "10" in marksmanship / gunhandling...and in fact, someone who's a 9.5 there but a "3" in the other departments, is probably not as well-prepared for the "real world" as someone who's a solid 6 or 7 in all categories.

What I think this thread is converging on, is that there is one proven, high-quality way to be a 6 or 7 in marksmanship and gunhandling under pressure which is available every single weekend most of the year - and that's to shoot practical competition. And I'm simply saying if someone can't be bothered to utilize the readily-available tool for maintaining a 6 or 7 in that department, they're probably not going to do what it takes to be a 6 in the others, either.

Now - can someone be a 6.5 in gunmanship working on their own without competition? Eh, probably. No doubt there are some (especially if the government is buying their bullets - ie, it's their job). Many gunfight survivors may have never competed. It's better to be lucky than good...but why not both? We're talking about increasing your chances here. And again, if a typical person isn't willing to take the rapid, baptism-by-fire route to the goal by signing up on the sheet and having someone run a timer behind them with others watching, no do-overs, and the results published on the internet, what are the chances they're _really_ putting in the high quality range time necessary to achieve that result on their own, without all those induced pressure sources?

 

[Trapper Jim]

Perfect timing. At the match tonite, I was asked by an INGOER to explain my years of comments when I speak of ability driven accessories or training. I thought of this thread as this INGOER has decided (after years of reading magazine ads and watching you tube shooting university and buying the latest Supercool gadget of the week) to jump in and have some great fun and at the same time be helped by many seasoned shooters and also got his eyes opened wide.

Another shooter came by and made the statement that PCC or CO would be towards the top in the scores and that’s why they win. While it is true that 3 of the top 5 used CO, first and second went to production shooters.

The message here is, ANYONE in the top 10 of any match, has earned it, the hard way. Regardless of the tool they used. In other words, their skill set (ability) led them to master whatever the next greatest gun of the week will be.

There were many that had the latest race holsters and pricey guns and the latest gadgets but NOT the skill set stepping stones that it takes to get there.

My advice is to master the very basics with a basic gun and basic holster and then move up to the next level. The fundamentals are the same for all levels or with any pistol you can handle. If you are not getting there, then quit trying to buy your way to the top, get professional training and then work your axx off for it.

But, for all the competitors tonight, no matter where they placed in the match, the biggest win, is the self awareness and measurement of what you need to work on and the fact that you are now not walking around with a false sense of security. Even last place wins the fact that he wants to be a responsible gun owner.

So yeah, shooting sports rule!

 

[Dean C.]

Perfect timing. At the match tonite, I was asked by an INGOER to explain my years of comments when I speak of ability driven accessories or training. I thought of this thread as this INGOER has decided (after years of reading magazine ads and watching you tube shooting university and buying the latest Supercool gadget of the week) to jump in and have some great fun and at the same time be helped by many seasoned shooters and also got his eyes opened wide.

Another shooter came by and made the statement that PCC or CO would be towards the top in the scores and that’s why they win. While it is true that 3 of the top 5 used CO, first and second went to production shooters.

The message here is, ANYONE in the top 10 of any match, has earned it, the hard way. Regardless of the tool they used. In other words, their skill set (ability) led them to master whatever the next greatest gun of the week will be.

There were many that had the latest race holsters and pricey guns and the latest gadgets but NOT the skill set stepping stones that it takes to get there.

My advice is to master the very basics with a basic gun and basic holster and then move up to the next level. The fundamentals are the same for all levels or with any pistol you can handle. If you are not getting there, then quit trying to buy your way to the top, get professional training and then work your axx off for it.

But, for all the competitors tonight, no matter where they placed in the match, the biggest win, is the self awareness and measurement of what you need to work on and the fact that you are now not walking around with a false sense of security. Even last place wins the fact that he wants to be a responsible gun owner.

So yeah, shooting sports rule!

Well now I feel better about my 10th place score , you still beat my ass though . Very happy I made it out tonight it was a great shoot and I needed that after almost a year off. Honestly this thread is the reason I dragged my butt in.

 

[bwframe]

I think the "tactical" training proponents should have score sheets laying around at the rate of 20% of their training certificates. The competition guys, with a lot more "paper," should have maybe 5% training class certs vs their score sheets.

Too many of us fall for the stereotypes that others with more talk than experience express.

There is some truth to the saying that "your competition will get you killed." At the same time, a skilled comp shooter, shooting on the move, might just beat a drawn gun?

I've seen a fair amount of crap out of both sides. Poor to borderline dangerous gun handling in training classes, with some trainers flirting with it as a sales tactic. "Big boy rules." The other end is the very large percentage of competition guys who, after the match, don't gun up for the trip home.

 

[Trapper Jim]

I think the "tactical" training proponents should have score sheets laying around at the rate of 20% of their training certificates. The competition guys, with a lot more "paper," should have maybe 5% training class certs vs their score sheets.

Too many of us fall for the stereotypes that others with more talk than experience express.

There is some truth to the saying that "your competition will get you killed." At the same time, a skilled comp shooter, shooting on the move, might just beat a drawn gun?

I've seen a fair amount of crap out of both sides. Poor to borderline dangerous gun handling in training classes, with some trainers flirting with it as a sales tactic. "Big boy rules." The other end is the very large percentage of competition guys who, after the match, don't gun up for the trip home.

Good point. An interesting statistic would be how many Competitors are not defense driven enough to carry. When IDPA started in ‘97 it was to cater closer to the street guy, however , the “gun ups” in that game also involves equipment that may not be the best choice for street carry.