The case for the 1911

[KG1]

Looks to me like this is shaping up to be just another glock vs. 1911 thread. Why does it matter what LE carries? They both fire boolits. Why should LE make the switch to 1911 when what they currently use gets the job done?

 

[Jaybird1980]

An officers sidearm is their main "combat" weapon it is what is used mostly because it is the quickest to get too. How many times has an officer shot 50rds of sidearm ammunition at a bad guy or guys? For that matter how many have fired 9 rds?

I have no idea how many, but they are the ones way more likely to encounter that situation.

We have the option to just get the hell far far away. That's not their option.

And that's only one factor.

 

[DadSmith]

I have no idea how many, but they are the ones way more likely to encounter that situation.

We have to option to just get the hell far far away. That's not their option.

And that's only one factor.

Only time they would encounter that situation is when they would call in a swat team. Because they are way out gunned.

Now this thread is about why a 1911 could be a officers duty weapon. The max capacity beliefs are put aside with research 4 rds is the avg one officer will expend with his sidearm during an encounter with a bad guy or guys. So 9rds is way above avg.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Only time they would encounter that situation is when they would call in a swat team. Because they are way out gunned.

Now this thread is about why a 1911 could be a officers duty weapon. The max capacity beliefs are put aside with research 4 rds is the avg one officer will expend with his sidearm during an encounter with a bad guy or guys. So 9rds is way above avg.

That's just not true.

Look up Officer Timothy Gramins

If they could wait for swat they would

I also wouldn't want to prepare for the average. Prepare for worst case.

 

[DadSmith]

Former Delta Force Operator: Why the 1911 Is Still My Favorite Sidearm

Our primary choice for a secondary (backup) firearm was the M-1911 .45 caliber blazer, legacy of the venerable John Moses Browning.

sofrep.com

Another interesting read about 1911's.

 

[DadSmith]

That's just not true.

Look up Officer Timothy Gramins

If they could wait for swat they would

I also wouldn't want to prepare for the average. Prepare for worst case.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty

www.police1.com

Wow that was something. Good read.

I'd say definitely need to prepare for such an encounter. Don't most patrol cars have AR-15's in them now for these situations?

 

[Jaybird1980]

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty

www.police1.com

Wow that was something. Good read.

I'd say definitely need to prepare for such an encounter. Don't most patrol cars have AR-15's in them now for these situations?

I don't know about most. Heck I think it's been mentioned here that it's an issue with IMPD getting officers patrol rifle trained

I personally think they should all have good quality sidearms, patrol rifles, and dash cams. All the wasteful spending that goes on in states and the officers get left behind

 

[DadSmith]

I don't know about most. Heck I think it's been mentioned here that it's an issue with IMPD getting officers patrol rifle trained

Our Deputies and our small town police have them. Milan and Versailles. I guess they are better equipped than the big city police.

However, officer Gramins I don't think had any chance to get his shotgun or rifle.

I notice he told himself to calm down and aim better and he finally nailed the bad guy in the head several times. Now if there had been two or three bad guys I can see where a 1911 would be out of ammo in that situation.

Maybe carry some hardball ammo for those situations if that is allowed.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Our Deputies and our small town police have then. Milan and Versailles. I guess they are better equipped than the big city police.

Ours do too, but I imagine it's easier to supply a handful of Officers vs who knows how many in some of the big city's.

Actually ours officers probably buy their own handguns and rifles

 

[Dean C.]

Actual Special Forces Pistols Up For Auction -

GunBroker has for auction two very interesting STIs. WeaponsMan has covered the story: These pistols for sale on GunBroker come with a rare claim: they were used by one of the nation’s most important special operations units during a period in the mid-oughts when that unit was flat-out in a...

www.thefirearmblog.com

Larry Vickers going over the Delta transition from 1911's to 2011's in the early 2000's with documentation. Capacity was the driving issue. Unfortunately the STI guns didn't run but honestly untill very recently in USPSA the running joke I heard a lot when someone got a new open gun from STI was "have fun sending it off to a gunsmith to get it to work" especially the 40 guns (to make major power factor).

Basically again, if you want a 1911 for duty / professional use buy a 2011 and don't be cheap about it.

 

[daddyusmaximus]

Personally and this is coming from a shooter that loves 1911, 99% of cops have no business running 1911's IMHO. They simply do not spend enough time with their firearms to be able to properly maintain and keep them running.

They need a pistol for the lowest common denominator and that's why 60%~ of all PD's in America use Glocks (that and they are WAY cheaper). Now issuing them to more highly trained units that can properly use them makes sense to me , IE US Marshals issuing 2011's to their SOG team.

Actually, that's not a case "against" the 1911, but rather "for" better officer training.

Just as in the modern military, most departments spend way too much time screwing around on "feel good training", and not nearly enough time training on field work. Concentration should be heavily placed on training related to tasks performed in the performance of officers actual jobs, with emphasis place on those parts of the job for times when things go wrong, like when their weapons are needed, or when first aid training is needed... It is at THOSE times that officers so often make the mistakes that get themselves on video all over the internet... or get themselves, or someone else killed.

HOWEVER, the politicians (same as officers) who run the departments... have zero clue.

 

[VERT]

70 posts! I assume this turned into 1911 vs Glock.

1911 would be a fine service pistol. Not practical for most departments because of the cost. You can buy 5 Glocks for the what 1 decent quality 1911 will run. Plus 9mm is cheaper to shoot and train with then .45 ACP. Simple economics.

 

[Sitcomdad83]

I love 1911s but if shtf I'm grabbing something else with more capacity. I carry 1911s but also spend a ton of time training and working on that platform. Not a huge polymer fanboy but nowadays they outpoint the 1911 in my opinion.

 

[Leo]

I never tell my barber what kind of tools to use when I need a hair cut. I never tell a mechanic what kind of tools to use for his job. I am sure not going to tell a peace officer what kind of tools he needs.

In 2007 some bunch of bureaucrats in the City of Dallas decided officers needed "safer" ammo when patrolling down town. They got some kind of frangible ammo., supposed to save the public from stray shots. In the city limits an officer was in a shootout with a doper in a car. The officer emptied his weapon and nothing penetrated the windows. The dope head got one shot off before his gun jammed. That bullet killed the officer. The arm chair quarterbacks that took the officers bullets away got to eat steak dinners with their families that weekend, I rode motor escort for for the officers burial.

If the officers want to shoot .45, let them, if they want to shoot .40 glocks, let them, but don't sit in a air conditioned office and take away the tool of his choice. The way things are going in major cities, an MP5 might be needed.

 

[BigRed]

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty

www.police1.com

Wow that was something. Good read.

I'd say definitely need to prepare for such an encounter. Don't most patrol cars have AR-15's in them now for these situations?

I cannot speak for patrol cars, but every car in our family is equipped with at least one.

 

[Brad69]

I have witnessed several LEO carrying 1911’s in classes I have attended. That being said large departments let out bids for sidearms.
I don’t think it would make $$ sense to use 1911’s when Glock, S&W offer packages including spare parts and training.

Can‘t imagine calling DW and saying give me you best price on 2,000 1911’s!

 

[DadSmith]

I have witnessed several LEO carrying 1911’s in classes I have attended. That being said large departments let out bids for sidearms.
I don’t think it would make $$ sense to use 1911’s when Glock, S&W offer packages including spare parts and training.

Can‘t imagine calling DW and saying give me you best price on 2,000 1911’s!

Yep it pretty much boils down to $. They will take the best deal they can get at the cheapest price possible. It's sad deal but it is how it works. I posted up thread that some poor departments have bought Hi-Point carbines because they can't afford anything else. If this defund the police continues they may be issuing Hi-Point handguns in the future. I think I would ask if I could supply my own handgun at some point. Texas Rangers are given Sigs now days but they are allowed to by whatever they want as a backup. And most carry 1911's they buy instead. Usually Texas Rangers 1911's are fancy. I got to stop by the Texas Rangers museum and found out a lot about them very interesting. If you all get a chance it is in Waco, Texas.

The Official Texas Ranger Hall of Fame and Museum - Waco, Texas

The Texas Ranger Hall of Fame and Museum is the State-designated official historical center of the famed Texas Rangers Law Enforcement Agency in Waco, Texas. We preserve the history and inspire an appreciation of the Texas Rangers, a Texas Legend and an American Heritage.

www.texasranger.org

They have a lot of firearms used by Rangers in it.

 

[Dean C.]

Texas Rangers STI Pistol

So, Tony Pignato has been after me for a while to build pistols for the Ranger Division. A couple weeks ago, I called him on some unrelated business and we got around to discussing a group pistol purchase for the Texas Rangers. He discussed it with the Heads at STI and I got approval from Austin....

forums.brianenos.com

Apparently 100 or so rangers are carrying 2011's as they were approved for duty use. Would love to snag one of these or the US Marshals gun, and I am not normally one to collect LE guns.

 

[DadSmith]

Staccato P - Staccato 2011

The Staccato P is approved for duty and chosen for its trusted durability, reliability, accuracy, and performance.

staccato2011.com

Approved for duty by over 280 law enforcement agencies across the country,


That is a nice looking firearm.

I guess not all LE agencies are forced to by the cheapest

 

[DadSmith]

Things Texas Rangers do to their 1911's